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I happen to believe in multilateral frameworks for conflict resolution which we have worked to establish throughout the standoff of the cold war era, and remain stunned that a citizen of a European nation like yourself who has reaped the fruits of those efforts in terms of one of the longest running periods of European peace ever known (if not the longest) should be so ready to support those who would plummet us all beckwards 100 years to the free-for-all age of conquest diplomacy.
As for why I care not to comment on your assertions towards France or Russia is because I happen to agree with them in this instance. My government is out of line and out of touch with the inevitable consequences of what they fully intend to do against whomever they wish in the name of my country and my fellow countrymen. It will be the average folk who are left to bear the brunt of repercussions both at home and abroad, not these corrupt fascists.
The fact that the White House has also blocked or evaded any tangible susbstantiation of the allegations upon which they demand such immediacy for war only fuels my contempt further and shows how clearly the principle of might makes right has superceded social justice and accountability in the minds of the current political elite in Washington.
Any government which professess to adhere to the rule of law whilst dismissing adherence to an international criminal court, flaunting its refusal to be held accountable to its own sworn obligations under international conventions (BWC, CWC) and which continues to ally itself with eqaully as heinous groups or individuals to further its own selfish lust for power has no legitimacy by its own self proclaimed standards.
I reiterate that eventually the majority of my countrymen will feel the weight of shame that they once again allowed the aparatus of state to manipulate them into supporting actions which will inevitably only make the world more unstable and insecure. Not something I want any of our young men and women to be putting their lives on the line for.
Yeah, and what actually happened to him?
If you are going to pick an example, best not pick one who got his arse kicked and ended up in exile. Wouldn't you say?
Let me tell you a story, one which involves my own son.
More than three decades ago, I stepped across a line, and volunteered to accept the responsibilities which come with the privileges and freedoms of citizenship, in my country. I went off to fight a war on the other side of the world, because of an ethic within me. I survived the protracted moment of chaos - for two tours - that so many of my Brothers did not, those who died in horrible agony, all around me.
I returned to "the world", and pursued a career on the world stage. I liked the life I led, and it eased the immediacy of "issues" I carried back from my moment in hell.
I set aside "fame and fortune", in order to become the single parent of my 2 yr old son. I took the step from fortune to poverty, in order to fulfill the responsibility of raising a son whom I loved, and still love, as much as any father of this world is capable.
That son is now a man. He enlisted in the Marine Corps, out of the same sense of honor and duty as all those before him. His MOS puts him in the intelligence community, and HE has seen the highly classified material that the clandestine-collaborator denies the existence of. What my son has seen? CANNOT be revealed to me, because of its classified nature. However... it also has my son chafing at the bit, the constraints within his 24 hr alert, awaiting to be deployed to the middle east.
Have I seen the "smoking gun" with my own eyes? No, I have not. But it is of such a nature that my son is more than willing to sacrifice his life to the necessity of contending against it. There is a message there, even tho the clandestine-collaborator refuses to see it.
Do I want my son to go to war? HELL NO!!! I would rather stand his post, in his stead, just as I did decades ago. However, the time for me being the "tip of the spear" is gone. Just as I said "not on MY watch!", he now says the same words, and I must accept the necessity of his facing his moment, for ALL of us.
This is not about idle posturing, not about anything other than the unwashed heathens that the clandestine-collaborator takes such joy in demeaning, being the exact same who must pick up and take out the garbage from so many of his kind's ill-thought out fuck-ups. It is not about posturing on a BBS, but about the blood-sacrifice of ones who are loved, deeply, but also respected.
And the clandestine-collaborator? Is one of those parasites which exist by the grace of that very same blood-sacrifice.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Enough of this. I have a GUNSHOW to go to - with 1800 vendor tables - and then a Superbowl with my OAKLAND RAIDERS to watch... distractions for a momentary respite before the reality of chaos is revisited.
http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html
My own brother in law served in Nam as well and I can tell you he takes a vastly opposing view to your own. Globe (Thanatos?). What he sees is much the same fear mongering, war mongering , and lies to justify it all and to hide the real truth that this is about Big Business interest alone, being spewed out in this latest version of the story you swallowed without question decades ago (and appear so willing to do so again at the risk even of your own son's life).
Ill surely have deep symapthy for your son should he fall in combat, since he is now the property of corrupt men in Washington, but you I will merely pity you as too foolish to recall the past and join those of us who speak out against its repetition.
N.B. You posted about intelligence which your son has seen, but ill wager he wasnt the one who personally gathered it all and i doubt he could verify whether it was actual or contrived intelligence since such knowledge is undoubtedly the domain of the joint chiefs of staff and the President's Cabinet alone. Since the joint chiefs caved in to the demands of the Kennedy/Johnson administrations for propganda and lies to justify the Vietnam War and its successive escalations, its more than plausible they are doing so again.
After all, its in the military's own interests to get sophisticated new toys of destruction to play with and massively increased budget expenditures to work with, that they play along.
Just as in the case of Vietnam, today's lies will eventually emerge and more shame to those like yourself who support(ed) them.
Be careful what you wager, because you would be surprised, and you would lose. Within your deprivation of hard intel, have not the slightest concept of how the intelligence community functions, including the fact that most of the intel is analyzed by enlisted - such as my son - long before it reaches the desk of the President, and the President himself would have a difficult time cutting through the protocols to see the pre-analyzed material.
Collaborator has to do with aiding the enemy, and as a sock-puppet of Baghdad, it is so apropos, when used to describe you. Refering to military as "nazi's" again? What else would one expect from the chancre, such as you...?
Continue to run your mouth, because it is the only weapon you possess. The reality? In complicity with your stated hero - Komrad Blow-job Klinton - how many deaths has your mouth to its credit? 3,000+ in one day was not too bad, was it? How many has your mouth killed, today? Likely far more than I did with an M-14 in a combat AO...
Biased by the hard truth, as opposed to your propogandized rhetoric? Yeah, guilty as complimented.
However, use the correct name - the one I have been called by since Quang Tri City, 1972, and the name that so terrifies the administration here that every permutation of it is banned - Thanatos. Teufelhund? Yes, and that moniker was earned. So was Thanatos.
Actually if anything it is you and your ilk that brought about 9/11 with years of funding, training and supporting terrorist organisations, undemocratic unsurgency movements to topple legitimately elected leaders, and financial backing for repressive regimes all in the name of greed and power.
So let the souls of the innocent victims of your brand of knee jerk violent repression and domination be on your shoulders. Time will reveal to the majority exactly how ill-considered, irresponsible, and destructive your worldview truly is.
We liberals will continue to make every effort to build and establish peace and progress for a more a peaceful world whereever you and your kind wreak your chaos.
My ilk? My ilk deal with the messes created by your kind... the gutless politicols that "fight" by proxy, too deprived of the testicular requisites to do it in person.
My ilk? Walked the path that you will never find the courage to do.
My ilk?
My ilk lays down their lives. We do not make the decisions. THAT is up to those like you. We just enforce them.
Isn't that your mother calling? Sodamn Insane? Aren't you late for that indoctrination meeting? The one for you to help negotiate the surrender of the civilised world to Iraq?
I've got a football game to watch: diddle yourself, by yourself...
You really are the fool, aren't you, Sock-puppet?
And neither do you question them but obey like mindless robots and then think its a valid excuse to say "I was just following orders". Well there was another group of hard-nosed "gotta clean up the messes" soldiers who thought Jews were filthy scumbag terrorists and parasites (familiar rhetoric ol boy?) and that blasting and shooting them to kingdom come was the way to make things better but that excuse didnt serve them well in the end and it doesnt excuse following corrupt and domination hungry Presidents today either.
And you should swallow your "rah rah" flag waving and thank your lucky stars that those like me come back once the public wakes up from the mass hype and realises how much damage those you seem to bow down to have caused. If not, you wouldnt have a free society to fight for in the end. God knows if the USA Patriot Act and the DHD are not disbanded and revoked as overt political authoritarianism and betrayal of the most fundamental principles of liberty in our Constitution, then one day your son may be nothing more than a new-fangled SS trooper protecting a "new world order" (another nice Bushism) of power corrupt business lead fascists.
your dragging my country down with you as well. people with your outlook are heaven sent to extremists.
I asked that question myself, since the lies that fueled the war in the first place (as i posted the link to elsewhere) were headline revelations across America in the 80's and it was hot shame on the Washington establishment at the time. Yet Globe speaks of it like it was honour and glory and protecting my liberty, which we all know now wasnt the case. They were fighting then as they will be doing so now to serve big money interest and geopolitical manipulation. And in the end the problems will only escalate beyond what Globe would ever want to deal with or see befall his own home and even then he'd probably defend what he didnt question and pretend it made things better.
A very frightening and dangerous delusion indeed. Well spotted MR!
dumb because they never seem to question very much or challenge the rights and wrongs of things.
you don't actualy have much in the way of military glory to speak of, not without the aid of numerous allies and then when it's over you glorify it all in your movies. which rewrite history to make you the heroes. poor old president carter bit the dust cos of your military incompetance. the list is fucking endless.
despite what hollywood tries to portray to the world, most of the world do not see america as the great saviour but as a bungling greedy destroyer.
just don't call me anti american. you couldn't be more wrong. i wont tell you my very personal attatchments to america. yes i am anti american bullshit and idiocy. especialy at the top of the pile.
And your pizzant lil' island got its ass handed to it in the Falklands, didn't it? Same/same...
Once again, your memory leaves you with your skivvies at half mast. Do you have even a vestige of the 60's or 70's? Or is it all lost in a drug hazed stupor?
Or do you simply slurp down every turd dropped by by traitorous chancres of the clandestine-collaborators ilk?
Once again, for them bereft of cognitive capability... :rolleyes:
Within the narrow mission statement, the military object of the US armed forces in Vietnam was to prevent the North from over-running the South. We were NEVER allowed to prosecute the war in a manner which would have brought about a clear cut military victory, just as the coalition forces were constrained in Iraq a decade ago. Without those same constraints? Baghdad would have been razed, and if the First Marines had been released? As we begged and pleaded? Hanoi would have been an evening stopover on our way to secure the Chinese border, in a recreation of Sherman through Atlanta.
Those constraints were put in place by the parasites of the clandestine-collaborator's ilk.
The "Easter Offensive" of 1972? In Quang Tri Provence? US forces had been bled down to 1/10th previous deployment, as troops were being shipped home. NVA put on a BIG push, and swarmed through the DMZ. US forces - at only 10% deployment, pushed the NVA back across the DMZ, and forced the North Vietnamese to the Paris tables.
Fact. Not your revised history rhetoric and propaganda. I know, because I was there.
You buy into that revised history rhetoric quite well, don't you? NVA were not pathetic little farmers in black PJ's, but a disciplined, well outfitted army who fought hard, while out numbering us 10 to 1. Got that number into your head yet? There were ALWAYS ten of them for each of us, yet we had a kill ratio of 60 to 1.
During the siege at Khe Sanh, typical of NVA stategy of hitting with their greatest force where we were weakest, there were 5600 Marines holding against 100,000 NVA regular army, not including the Viet Cong. And outmanned, the Marines held the position. Your "memory" is bullshit.
After the Paris Peace Accords were forced upon North Vietnam by their defeat during the Easter Offensive, US forces left Vietnam - according to proscribe treaty - and left a secure South Vietnamese government to the defense of the ARVN. As specified in the Paris signed treaty. Hanoi once again broke the treaty they had signed - SOP for you leftists - and over-ran the ARVN forces... 2 years after the last US military withdrawl.
Got our asses kicked. No; the successful fruition of a constrained military objective was given away by scum like the clandestine-collaborator.
Greenhat has posted within this forum previously, and quoted Vietnamese generals who admitted that the US kicked their fucking asses, every damned time they came up against us, every damned place the confronted us. The US never ONCE lost ANY engagement of platoon size or larger.
Truth hurts, doesn't it? So you prefer to believe in the lies, distortions, and fabrications of traitors, correct? Won the battle, but lose it in the "history" book, leftist propaganda.
Yeah... I hear chancres like the clandestine-collaborator running their hopefull mouth that this time, the US will have its ass handed to it. Heard it before Desert Storm. Heard it before Afghanistan. Hear it every damned fucking time. However... it only plays in your wetdreams. It does not play that way in reality.
US political objective was to constrain the expansion of communism in Asia. With the collapse of the Soviet state - helped along by being bled out from engaging military battles and armorment battles world wide, it would appear that communism did NOT win. Laugh is on you, steelgate sycophant.
Go back to your drug induced stupor: reality is too terrifying place for the likes of you.
Why do you not explain the battle at Balleau Woods, during WW1, the moment when Teufelhund was coined, and the Marine accomplished what the limey's and frogs knew was "impossible".
Why do you not explain Bastogne?
Why do you not explain Khe Sanh?
Why do you not explain ANYTHING in the real world, or can the real world not be found from within your drug induced stupor?
Helping prevent the march of communism was wrong?
Indeed politically the war was lost. Militarily though things were different. Problem is, if your military is hamstrung by political imperitives (as they were in the First Gulf War) then the outcome is different to the one which could have been.
I don't want to get into a Vietnam discussion here, but if the US military had been allowed to prosecute the NVA and VC across the border into North Vietnam, do you really think that things would have ended the same? What do you think that a DMZ actually is? Do you believe that if the areas east of the Rhineland had been classed as a DMZ that we would have beaten Hitler (note I am not comparing Ho with Hitler, just a concept of warfare) or do you think we would have allowed him an area to build arms and to maintain forces?
That's just the point of this whole argument concerning the lies that were spewed out by Washington to justify Vietnam in the first place, it wasn't the spread of Communism we were fighting, Ho Ghi Min was a Nationalist and we had no business entering the conflict in the first place. All the more so since both the French and the Australians even warned Washington not to make the mistake they had made during their failed attempts to quash the fray.
To blame the politicians is fine, why is Globe not as ready to do the same thing now? Or will he need another 20's years until the truth of what our boys (and countless numbers of innocent Iraqi civilians) will have died for in Iraq emerges? What isnt fine is justifying that we should have been there in the first place or that we should have obliterated the whole country if given the chance. This is the kind of sick militarism that is ready to believe any reason given to it by Washington so long as it can just go kill something, regardless of how much worse off it will make the global situation.
So much of what Washington claimed to be the urgent necessities for sending our boys over to Nam have been revealed and documented and set out in numerous publications and books that there is no excuse for those like Globe to continue deluding themselves that there was ever any threat to the US or to our democratic way of life. It was and will always have been about protecting business investments that were financing the administrations at the time, just as the impending invasion of Iraq is actually about the demands of the industries pulling the strings today.
Go back and read the link I posted concerning Vietnam and perhaps do some further reading and then youll see how easily Washington can whip up the war ferver when people refuse to question or recall how often this scenario of lies has been repeated.
Er... by dropping some 500,000 tonnes of high explosives including chemical weapons on a nation of farmers 10,000 miles away that had no repercussion or effect in the USA whatsoever? Is that an acceptable thing to do?
All fuelled by America's hyper-phobia and profound fear of the C word.
If that is your way of thinking then presumably you don't see anything wrong with any country bombing the shit out of another if they believe the other country's institutions and political system clash with their way of life, and there is a possibility however remote that they might get 'infected' with the said country's system.
So let's start bombing Islamic countries, Islamic countries can start attacking us, the Koreas might as well go for each other as well... all in the good name of preserving our way of life.
Damn right I want to preserve the freedoms etc that my life of life grants me.
That people don't really worries me.
So learn to recognise who actually is threatening your freedoms whilst working feverishly to get you to look thousands of miles away at a piss ant banana republic.
Beyond losing money now, France and Russia knowthat if the opposition to Saddam get in, they won't forget how Russia and France accepted money from the fuel for food progam as payment for thier technologies they sold to Saddam.
Are you seriously suggesting that Vietnam was a threat to the American way of Life?
Are you suggesting that the spread of communism wouldn't have affected them?
Bearing in mind that it wasn't just the US that was involved in VN militarily...
If you think that someone like Saddam controlling the world's oil supplies is no threat to you then perhaps you should look at how much we, as a society, rely on it.
If you think that his being allowed to stockpile WMDs isn't a threat to his oil rich neighbours, and consequently us then you need to look at his actions in 1991 when he had a stronger military.
If you think that his current strength is low, then perhaps you should consider how much stronger he would be if he was allowed to develop such weaponry. He'd hardly need a string conventional force, would he?
If you think we can wait to find out that he has developed nuclear capability, then you need to ask yourself how easy it would be to get them off of him. Perhaps you should ask, as a guide, how easy it would be to get Israel, Francem Korea, India, Pakistan, China, Russia, the UK and the US to give up theirs - and most of those are democracies...
Shush now PNJ, you mentioned someone else's duplicity again.
We know that you mustn't mention it, especially if those countries agree with the no-war in Iraq brigade...
Remember duplicity is only an issue if you disagree with Clandestine...
Careful. MoK!!! :eek:
You are treading perilous ground!!! :eek:
Next thing you know, YOU will be accused of being Thanatos!
Lovely bit of altered history. Untrue, however. Ho Chi Minh was a dedicated Communist who first was involved with the Communist Party in France prior to the Japanese invasion of Asia.