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But since we're trying to be civilised and reach a solution that is as just to all parties concerned as possible, we'd better stick to the Palestine & Israel as two independent neighbouring states eh?
[devil's advocate]
But how does this pacify those group who want to see Israel "wiped from the map", wouldn't they continue to attack. Don't you think that those states who currently support these groups, would continue to do so?
As for foreign groups seeking to destroy Israel, there are not many around nowadays - and those that are limit themselves to launching a piss-poor propelled grenade from the border that doesn't even travel 800 yards into Israeli territory before impacting on wasteland. Hardly the stuff that brings down countries.
No nation on earth seeks the destruction of Israel anymore- regardless of whether they have officially said so or not- and in fact earlier this year Arab nations put forward a peace plan that included full recognition of the kingdom of Israel in exchange for the return of the Golan Heights and other stolen land. Unfortunately the Israelis chose to ignore this.
Of course, Israel might from time to time be the victim of a terrorist attack- what country is nowadays free of that?- but as I said the main catalyst for all the violence is the continuing Palestinian conflict. Solve that in a just manner and most of the hostility towards Israel would dissipate.
Yeah, right. Do you really believe that?
I suggest you read a bit more about the history of the "Palestinian" people in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.
You honestly think that everyone reasons the same way you do, don't you?
Well one alternative would be to believe your old-and-tired, fool-no-one cry that the world is out to get Israel. Judging by numerous comments made in this forum in the past you and others seem or want to believe that independent enquiries, Red Cross and Amnesty personnel accounts and endless media reports about Israeli human right abuses are lies created by Nazi Europeans bent on the destruction of Israel.
A great, fail-safe argument. "They are all out to get us, giving Palestinians their land back would solve nothing, let's keep putting the boot on them or even better wipe them out from this, our god-given land."
:rolleyes:
Should I add- just like every Israeli mother is eager to send her child to the army? So excited, so when having not heard from her child for days, she lays sleepless at night, out of the pure reason of excitement?
You're welcome.... :rolleyes:
Aladdin,
Who is it which Israel seeks to make peace with? The Palestinians... Agreeing?
Next question, who are the palestinians representatives? Arafat and Co. aka PLO, right?
Now, why the fuck havn't they changed their charter? Why the fuck does it still have the same point on it, as it had before the "Peace"agreement with Rabin and Peres?
Now add that, with all the other groups who are eagerly waiting to see the last Israeli drowned in the sea (search for different "liberation" organisations charters), and yes, the Israelis over-dramatising paranoia and un-necessary and excessive need of selfdefense, becomes clear?
Just what I thought...
WARNING! This post contains sarcasm, at its highest
Aladdin, what do you think of this statement?
"The Israeli forces will withdraw from the occupied territories, stop the military incursions and help Palestine become an independant state when the terrorist attacks upon Israelis stop completely."
No doubt they can sympathise with the Palestinian mothers who kiss their 10 year-old children goodbye every morning wondering if this will be the last time they see them alive. Or when they wait to see if their husbands come back from prayer after another Israeli jet fighter fires missiles at a crowd outside a mosque where gunmen “might have been hanging about”.
The point of the above was?
Let me see. Treated like shit, every single official building demolished, put under siege twice with tanks firing shells into his headquarters, water and electricity cut out, dismissed as not significant and relevant, threatened with forced exile or death… Together with the tearing of the Oslo agreement, almost daily statements refusing to discuss or acknowledge the possibility of a Palestinian state in the future… I would imagine that is not the best way to conduct negotiations. You certainly aren’t going to get the removal of certain text in their charter out of goodwill. Of course, everybody knows that all Arafat and the PLO want is an independent Palestinian state. They are not seeking to destroy Israel, despite what their idealistic and dated charter might say. I agree they should remove it; they don’t because of political reasons. In view of the continuing occupation, repression and murders Arafat and the PLO would have a lot of explaining to do if they were to unconditionally remove the text in question, especially when in the eyes of the Palestinians they are the ones being exterminated or pushed out to the sea.
Of course, all of this suits Israel just fine, as it clings to the excuse that the PLO and Arafat are seeking the destruction of Israel and therefore no agreement or withdrawal of troops can ever take place.
If any nation were to take seriously the thousands of threats posted on the Internet by lunatics, weirdoes and idealists we might as well emigrate to Jupiter. What you have to ask yourself is how many of these groups pose a real threat to the survival of Israel?
Just what I thought.
Like I said earlier, all these threats are a god-sent gift to Sharon & co. to justify their expansionist oppressive policy.
Is a fair enough statement Balddog, as I'm sure you will find this one to be:
"When the Israelis withdraw from the occupied territories, return all the land they have stolen and dismantle the illegal settlements the terrorist attacks on Israelis will stop."
Now we just need to convince the Israelis and Palestinians that those statements are true of the other..which is a bit harder. Especially with the fringe groups running the show on both sides, settlers and bombers.
One day...
Aladdin, I don’t think that this would happen, even if the Israelis did everything you wanted. There are just far too many Arabs whose only goal is the complete destruction of Israel and the slaughter of all Israeli’s. They will never be in a position to achieve this, so the current situation will just continue
Paul
Isn't this a case of putting everybody in the same bag because of a VERY small fanatical vocal minority? You said earlier your wife thinks many Asian (Muslim) men in the UK are rapists and she won't get into a taxi with one. Do you actually believe that is the case?
I experience the same problem when travelling abroad to watch the England footy team, I have no interest in fighting and causing trouble but because of the actions of a few, we have a reputation which makes doing this less then easy.
Interestingly enough, the above comment has been promised by the Israelis...and the Palestinians have agreed and consistently broken the promise. Aladdin's statement has never been made by the Palestinians, and their record of maintaining their promises isn't good.
Aladdin, you like your sketch of the Palestinian's as victims, but the case for the other side can be made just as easily, maybe easier. The Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to go on with their lives, to end the terror that they live with. In each case, the Palestinian authority or Palestinian terrorism has contributed to ensuring it didn't happen. Is it the majority? Probably not (although Jordanians aren't Palestinians....at least not according to the Palestinians....). Is it sufficient to be fairly clear that your solution would not be a solution? Yes, indeed.
I would go so far as to say that the issue of a Palestinian state is simply a means to an end for many of the leaders of the region, and that no such state will exist as long as Israel exists, because certain Palestinian and Arab leaders will ensure that it doesn't.
When Greenhat says that the Palestinians have broken their promises you are holding an entire people accountable to the actions of a minority...........
What you- and the statement- fail to discuss is the fact that it is in fact a pretty rotten deal. Ever-shrinking territories offered, no offer to remove illegal settlements, continuing control by Israel of water resources, etc etc ad nauseum.
I suggest you have a good look at the two links below, provided by Clandestine a while ago on another thread, and then come back here and tell us again what a good deal the above statement is.
http://www.btinternet.com/~huq/campdavid.html
http://www.poica.org/casestudies/geopolitical%20situation/
The water rights argument is bogus, as a little research will reveal. Of course, everyone seems to ignore the fact that Israel gave up being an oil producing nation in their settlement with Egypt. Everyone in the region is reliant on someone else for their survival. Why should the Palestinians be any different?
The Palestinians acting liking spoiled brats??? I think you have that the wrong way around. Hardly a credible argument to suggest that a people forced to live in virtual concentration camp conditions, denied access to places of employment or otherwise forced to undergo constant humiliating and time consuming checks, whose cities are filled with the burned out and rubble strewn remains of Israeli rockets and heavy artillery, and who are prevented from so much as even prospecting for new water supplies according to Israel's stipulations, are the ones acting to prevent progress on a peace settlement.
Let us not forget that it is Israel which has to date been financed susbstantially by the US, Israel which has flouted UN resolutions aimed specifically at them (not the Palestinians) and it is the Likhud government which tore up the Oslo agreement, not the Palestinians.
The fact that you refuse to acknowledge Israel's demeanor throughout as being, a priori, the cause for stalemate and regression back into the status quo of violence isnt at all surprising however. After all, what would the zionist lobby say if our own military personnel condemned the Israeli government when the US administration refuses to do so in any meaningful way? :rolleyes:
Besides, getting any of the countries in the region to cede their national sovereignty to the UN would be next to impossible.
Oh, and I suppose they were thrown out of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon for lawful and proper behavior? Oops, we aren't supposed to mention that, are we? The "Palestinians" have had numerous opportunities to work towards a homeland of their own or sharing in a nation...starting in 1948. They, and only they, are responsible for their situation. Israel didn't toss them out of Jordan...
The disputed territories are clearly within the borders of Israel/Palestine itself (i.e. West of the Jordan River and a small portion of the Dead Sea).
http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/country/palestine.html
Where did you hear that Jordan would be asked to relinquish any portion of their land?
Unless you are referring to the land seized in 1967. In this case, not being a lawyer I could not say whether any legal grounds would exist at this point for Jordan to argue that any portion of this land be returned to them. I do suppose however, that given Jordan's consistent expression of interest to have this conflict settled for the sake of regional stability, Jordan would more than likely cede the land rights as a PR gesture to any future Palestinian state.
"Americans" did not act as a united whole in the late 1700s...but they did do so in sufficient a manner as to found a new nation..
Similar examples can be made for the peoples of most nations today, certainly for the Israelis. So, are you suggesting that the Israelis are capable of self-interested control sufficient to form a state...but the Palestinians are not? Sounds racist to me...
Your point once again deviates to unrelated drivel as usual. What other Arab states have decided to do in terms of their treatment of Palestinians has nothing to do with the demeanor either the Israelis or the Palestinians have displayed towards each other nor who is in breach of UN resolutions (a fact you constantly sidestep) and who is keeping whom in a state of ruin, and which side acted the brat and tore up the Oslo peace accord (Israel), and which nation's ruling Party has vowed never to disband the settlements or to pull the troops out of the occupied territories (Israel again!).
An interesting article on just how much atrocity was committed by the Jewish militias in forming the state of Israel at the start...
http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/pilger_june19.cfm