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Communism
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Due to the large number of people who keep saying that communism will always end up like Pol Pot, Moa, or Stalin's regime I will explain what communism is and why it failoed in Russia.
First of all communism ie the democratic control of the means of production - the land, the factories by the workers and a plan of production for need not profit was only ever established once which was in Russia in 1917. The system collapsed there because of the enormous toll the civil war took on the Russian economy over the three years it was fought. Then the western countries armed the White Army to the teeth with weapons in an attempt to overthrow the Bolshiviks.
By 1920 Russian indrustial and agricultural output has fallen so much that the economy was in total ruin and famine set in resulting in 1920 of six million Russians starving to death. It was under these extreme economic conditions that the dictatorship of Stalin was able to rise and democracy within the communist system collapsed.
Every other communist regime was based on Russian Stalinist state capitalism that came after and were based on Russia in 1945 not Russia in 1917. Therefore China, Cambodia, Cuba, Vietnam and Eastern Europe were never workers communist regimes but were state capitalist stalinist regimes from the start!
True communism means the democratic control of all the means ofd production by the workers and a plan of production based on production for need not profit! Any system that does not have that is not communist. Therefore there were no communist revolutions after Russia in 1917.
www.socialistparty.org.uk
First of all communism ie the democratic control of the means of production - the land, the factories by the workers and a plan of production for need not profit was only ever established once which was in Russia in 1917. The system collapsed there because of the enormous toll the civil war took on the Russian economy over the three years it was fought. Then the western countries armed the White Army to the teeth with weapons in an attempt to overthrow the Bolshiviks.
By 1920 Russian indrustial and agricultural output has fallen so much that the economy was in total ruin and famine set in resulting in 1920 of six million Russians starving to death. It was under these extreme economic conditions that the dictatorship of Stalin was able to rise and democracy within the communist system collapsed.
Every other communist regime was based on Russian Stalinist state capitalism that came after and were based on Russia in 1945 not Russia in 1917. Therefore China, Cambodia, Cuba, Vietnam and Eastern Europe were never workers communist regimes but were state capitalist stalinist regimes from the start!
True communism means the democratic control of all the means ofd production by the workers and a plan of production based on production for need not profit! Any system that does not have that is not communist. Therefore there were no communist revolutions after Russia in 1917.
www.socialistparty.org.uk
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Comments
Do you think that none of us knows history?
Communism collapsed because of human nature. The system you describe does not fit with natural traits. Someone will always want to be in control - even in the supposed ideal that followed the inital revolution there was always someone in control. Lenin.
Who elected him there? When did the workers get together and decide that Lenin should be their leader.
Surely we've argued this whole issue out before. Who makes decisions, how do they get this power etc...
You just never answer. Because you have no answers, just a website, and copynpaste.
Communism comes to power when there are conditions of economic crisis.
The economic crisis and associated problems destabilise the democratic control of the party.
Communism then becomes Stalinist.
There is no way out of this. The economic crisis which bring in the Communists destroy them. That's simple.
It's also completely ignoring the personal motivations, ideological differences, ego trips, etc. of the leaders. But they screw Communism too. Workers don't want democratic control of the means of production. They want pay. Bosses don't want fair workers, they want profit. That works. Communism doesn't.
Marxism was always a foolish ideology. Designed as if people were machines, failing to take into account their wants, desires, their sins and their failings. Marx wasn't an idealist, he was a fool.
But do you think this is true for just comunism, or all command economys?
And, do you think there is less of a list of failings and drawbacks to free-market economys (such as ourselves and the USA run)? I don't. Its just the failings of comunism have been pointed out many times over, but the failings we are currenly living with wont be so well recorded for a good long time to come (50 -100 years maybe).
IMHO.... i always forget "IMHO"....
We know that the richest own a huge proprtion of the wrold's wealth and we know that the workers don't get to see much of it. But inspite of that we still have a higher standard of living when compared to communism.
In reality I still have a political voice too...
I agree, but technically there is no such thing as a command economy anywhere in the world.
Even states such as North Korea or Cuba have SOME elements of a free market economy.
Marx advocated the democratic control of all the means of production by the workers. It was meant to be democratic and under the control of the working class from the start when the Communist Manifesto was written.
Communism collapsed in Russia not because of human nature or anything else but because the civil war with the White Army totally devastated the Russian economy. In 1920 for example six million Russians starved to death because agricultural ouput collapsed. Starving Russian peasants even turned to cannabalism to survive conditions became that bad.
These extreme economic conditions were a direct result of the western countries attempt to destroy the revolution by arming the White Army.
Stalin arose because he had large number of supporters within the communist party who were in the previous Tsarist regime backed him and carried out a beaurocratic counter revolution within the communist party in which Trotsky and all the true communists were expelled. Stalin then began his plan to industrialise Russia and collectivise the countryside at breakneck speed even though Russia at the time was an unindustrialised backward peasant nation this led to its failure.
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
Allow me to introduce Mr. Spacebar and Mr. Enter.
Try pressing spacebar after full stops, commas, question marks, close quotes etc.
Try pressing enter at the end of each paragraph you write (ie when you close one thought and move onto the next one).
Follow these two simple steps and people will be reading your posts in no time.
On the subject of the thread, it really doesn't deserve comment. Steelgate, you've lost. I mean, one glaring inconsistency is that you claim that Stalin's collectivisation was too rapid, but surely if the workers are to own the means of production then they need to be collectivised first? Are you saying that the best way for a revolutionary Communist government to succeed is to...not introduce Communism?
Virtually no area of this argument has been left untouched, I'm surprised you all bother still.
Steelgate,
You're an idiot and a tool. You listen to the party line without actually bothering to research. Stalin simply followed in Lenin's footsteps. Nothing more. Nothing less.
As for the rest of your fantasies....if it was that simple to derail communism in 1917-20, what makes you think it could EVER work?
What Marx advocated is immaterial, because it doesn't work. Who does the mining in a truly communist country? Why? Who collects the garbage? Why? Who does all the nasty, horrible jobs? Why?
Russia and China were not heavily industrialised when communism was introduced into those nations. Marx ideally wished for his system to be instituted into a state such as Britain or the United States (which at the time of writing his theories were the major economic forces of the day).
Anyhow, Marxism will never be fully put into place. Contemporary capitalist societies are not as polarised as Marx believed would occur in a capitalist state (who are the 'ruling class' and the proletariat in Britain for example).
Even so many times in the west workers have come close to overthrowing capitalism such as the Paris commune of 1871 and the massive uprising in France in 1968 which involved millions of workers and tens of thousands of students. And the general strike in Britain of 1926. The miners strike in Britain of 1984 could also have escalated into a massive fight back by the workers had other unions go on strike in support of the miners such as the electricians union. The miners strike was undermined by Authur Scargills' refusal to hold a ballot which lost him a lot of support for the strike.
As Marx said to be successful a communist revolution must take place in an advanced industrialised country this is because the advanced industrialised countries dominate the world and can easily isolate and undermine communist revolutions that take place in Third World countries ie such as the blockade of Cuba and the backing of the White Army against the Red Army after the Russian revolution.
Marx has also been correct in his analysis of capitalism which states that capitalism goes through a series of boom and bust because the workers cannot buy back all the goods that they produce. As many journalists have said "Marx would have loved to have lived today with the collapse of the Arginetinian economy and the collopse of massive companies like Enron and Worldcom".
The Brazilian economy has also teetered on the verge of collapse and was only saved by being bailed out by a massive loan from the World Bank.
One part of Marixsm that has worked was in Nicaragua where tremendous gains in health care, education and living standards occured under the Sandanistas who although not true Marxists as they only nationalised 30 per cent of industry and didn't set up workers councils were still Marxist inspired. These gains resulted in a lower infant mortality rate than the United States. When the Sandanistas lost the elections these gains were lost with infant mortality rising and living standards falling again. The problem with the Sandanista was that they tried to appease the capitalists by only nationalising 30 per cent of industry. Then the capitalists formed the Contras to try to overthrow the Sandanistas.
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
The concept that every one gets a share of the profits of their efforts
The concept of social justice for all
Concept that every-one has a place in society
Concept of universal rights
Concept of co-operation
Hmm, an awful lot of concepts there, not a lot of substance.
Not so cool things about communism
Policies tend to drag evey-one into the same dung heap
Dictatorship of the Proletariate = Mob Rule
Tendency towards central contolling authority and autocracy
Human nature tend to make a mess of even the best intended things
Flawed concepts
cool things about soviet russia
They Shafted the Nazis
This monstrosity, a genuine land battle ship!
Battleship Potempkin, Alexandra Nevsky, 10 days that shook the world and other early cinematic triumphs
Cheep Vodka! (red bull will never be the same without it! :rolleyes: )
Not so cool things about soviet russia
They shafted every-one else they could as well
Gulags
Lenin and Stalin's policies seems to have accounted for more Russian dead than both world wars and spanish flu, COMBINED!
Its an Illeagal government formed by a coup
They pretty much invented spin! (see cinematic triumphs)
Oh well!
Ever wondered why?
Greed works as a motivator.
Who's gonna work their butt off for no reward?
Even russias great successes were a result of direct competition with 'the west'
What real communism is is a system where by all the means of production, distribution and exchange are under the democratic control of workers councils and where all offical positions are temporary and no officals earn more than the wage of a worker. And wherev there is a planned economy where all production is based on production for need not profit. That is what all the Marxist socialist parties policies are.
Communism is an alternative to the maddness of the free market economy where all the means of production, distribution and exchange are in the hands of a private minority. And where profit comes before anything else.
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
Because it couldn't stand up to a crisis.
So communism is okay, provided nothing bad happens?
Just ideolgical bollocks tho' isn't it?
Who is going to work harder, take on more responsibility and "run" a factory when they recieve no extra benfit or pay than the bloke who seeps the floor?
Again, who elects the council - who runs the country - who "commands" the army, what steps are in place to stop someone abusing their power (as Stalin did)...
Yadda yadda yadda.
The profit for the individual too don't forget.
Look at Russia, crap factories etc because everyone knew they had a job for life and would get paid no matter what the outcome. Why try harder, where is the motivation?
In the world of capitalism it is the companies which produce what the people want, most efficiently who prosper.
How do you prevent the slackers (like yourself) from ruining the whole exercise...?
One word; Purges.
That's how it works, isn't it, Steely?
Under true communism all workers will get an equal share of all the wealth. Instead of having their wealth taken from them in the form of profit, rent and interest. All the work will be equally shared out to eliminate all unemployment and to reduce the working week and where there will be democratic control of society by all.
If you have a look at capitalism you find that it produces chaos like sky high property prices at the moment. Capitalism is the economics of the madhouse where need for things is not considered only profit therefore you have empty buildings when there is homelessness, food mountains when there are people starving. And regular economic collapses because the workers cannot buy back all the goods that they produce so you get overproduction. A good critique of Capitalism is the book Economics of The Madhouse by Chris Harmen.
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
Ideally, Communism is an ideal state, but doomed to fail due to human greed.
It also failed to suppress bigotry against minorities, with the larger nations succeding at the expense of the smaller nations, leaving cukoo minorites of Russians all over the former USSR and Eastern bloc states akin to the way England left pro UK minorities in Ulster, Scotland and former colonial possessians.
Steelgate has a blinkered vision: open your eyes!
Communism will mean a global system where there are no nation states and where competition will be replaced by co-operation by groups of workers who will control all the means of production without bosses and without corporations. Workers councils will run all the means of production and distribution instead and be under the democratic control of their workers.
World communsim will put an end to global poverty as well because thing like debt repayments which Third World countries have to pay and extremely low wages which Third World workers get paid will no longer exist. Instead all the workers of the world will get an equal share of the world's wealth. Most of the work now neccassary under capitalism such as banking, insurance, and finance will no longer be neccessary under communism so all the reamining work can be shared out resulting in a massive shortening of the working week.
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
Have you ever had a psychiatric evaluation done?
Between the fantasies and the denial, I think it would be a good idea.
Did you know that at the start of the 2nd world war the red army didn't have an officer corps of its own? They had to recruit Tsarist officers to command the army!
Also, did you know that Robert Mugabe used to be a communist? So much for communist rants about social justice!
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
Oh, and anarchy is a better ideology than communism.