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I can accept your arguments that the world has only seen communism once, and the special circumstances at the time contrived to its failure. (Although it is a little "unscientific" to turn round after the fact with reasons why communism failed, or that it wasn't really communism in the first place).
But your arguments make it only more important that the theoretical problems with communism are answered - something which you have made not attempt to do.
Can you answer the questions already asked? Who will do the crappy jobs in communism? Who will work hard in a system where everyone earns the same? How will you motivate people?
and...
You admit the one time communism existed it failed, albeit because of special circumstances, what could be built into the system to prevent it failing again, under any circumstances?
With a much shorter working week crap jobs will not seem as bad. Also it is usually the best jobs that have the highest pay so the motivation thoery you are on about is wrong. For eample TV presenters and disk jokeys who have cushy jobs earn the most money.
Under communism not only would people earn the same but they would have to spend far less on rent for example. Under capitalism rent takes up a vast proportion of people's salaries because rents and house prices are not based on their true value which is the amount it costs to produce and maintain the buildings. For example it doesn't cost 150,000 pounds to build and maintain a flat but that is how much it cost for a flat on the market in somewhere like London. It's true value is something like 15,000 pounds and the cost of maintaining it is something like 200 pounds a year!
Once people saw that communism was fairer and that they didn't have a large proportion of their wages taken from them in the form of rent, and that they had to work fewer hours then most people would support the new system. Jobs could also be rotated so that people worked temoraryly doing a cushy job and then temporayly doing a crap job. This is one of the things thatt Karl Marx advocated.
There are safeguards as well to prevent a beaurocratic dictatorship from taking place as happened in Russia. These are that no offical earns more than the wage of a worker, all officals hold temporary posts and these posts are rotated amongst the workers. And where all officals are answerable to the workers below them.
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
The thing is it works very well in theory.
But in practice personal greed destroys it.
The Chinese have a Communist government, but they have adopted a lot of Democratic ideas.
Guess it depends on what you mean by "worked"...
Running students over with tanks? Yeah, it works...
Although, that could happen anywhere!
But these large profits only represent a higher standard of living. And the profits are spread out under capitalism in two ways; Firstly taxes, secondly by the expenditure of the wealthy - so it leads to a higher standard of living for all.
As for insurance, banking, I fail to see why they, or something similar wouldn't exist under Communism.
I didn't know TV presenters had an easy life - I thought they worked very hard.
I am a teacher, and I don't see how teacher's working hours could be reduced by huge amounts - I imagine the same is true for other professional jobs.
Perhaps. I think you underestimate by a very large margin the cost of maintaining flats - particularly if they are not actually owned by the inhabitants.
I can see money going on other things - like funding the huge government beaurocracy that is needed under communism.
An interesting idea. Still - who says what is a crap job, and what is a good job? Who decides how the rotation works? What's more how do people build up expertise in a proffession? Lack of expertise --> inefficiency. Inefficiency for the same results --> Longer working hours. So you work more under communism that under capitalism. I keep meaning to read him; I good do with a good laugh.:D What happened to them in Russia?
And even if it did work - are you saying there would be no permanent Civil Service? People would have to learn how to govern every six months? Make the same mistakes again, every, six months?
Thank you SteelGate for convincing me that its not just in practice that Communism doesn't work.
What exists in China is a dictatorship with a centralised planned economy, that is not communsim! As I have said time and time again communism in its true form only ever existed once briefly, that was in Russia in 1917 before it degenerated due to the enormous toll the civil war with the White Army took on the country!
There have been no true communist revolutions since then! All the so called communist revolutions since Russia in 1917 were in fact revolutions that established state capitalism, ie a centralised planned economy ruled by an elite group of party leaders not democratic workers control of the economy!
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
And why has that been allowed to happen. I thought the ideology was about practising precise control?
They are still socialist at heart, and let it slip at times (like TB's widely unnoticed comment a few months ago, boasting about how public spending had overtaken private spending (any true free marketer's nightmare)
2. Precise Control? Do you really believe New Labour aren't control freaks?
And how many times do we have to explain that it doesn't work, hasn't ever worked, and will never work. Therefore, hush.
Oh, and learn how to spell. Thank you.
1. I agree that it was a cynical action taken to allow them to enter into office.
2. I know that Labour is in control. I was talking about the Unions that support them. The ones who provide the 'Grace and Favour' properties. They seem to have lost control of Labour.
The Labour Party represents the interests of big business that is why is has moved so far away from socialism! It doesn't represent the interests of the workers and never really has done. It has never been a true socialist party dedicated to abolishing capitalism and estsablishing democratic workers control of the country.
Read the manifesto of the Socialist Party before you say the socailism doesn't work!
How come it was voted out of office then? :rolleyes:
and how come the other 640-odd seats of the Commons are occupied by the other parties?
If you think this is because the "people" loved his socialist policies, then you truly are a fool. Apart from the protest vote about the selection of Frank Dobson as the "offical" candidate there was also the Tube issue.
Just how popular is his "car tax"?
Nope, because it knows that the "people" don't want socialism, that actually we quite like the capitalist system. Which strangely enough is what this board proves really. How many supporters do you have on here?
Theory, nothing more.
in theory it is possible for a elephant to dangle off a cliff with only its tail tied to a daisy. But reality?
Like everyone has said, communism doesn't work because it has been proven that it doesn't stand the test of reality (such as Russia, post revolution). Ideals are one thing, human nature is another.
Your examples of how "popular" socialism is, relate to the popularity of individuals within the movement. Ken Livingstone won not because he was socialist, but because he's Ken.
And therein lies another danger to socialism - popularity of the individuals rather than the party leads to Fascism. (Like a certain very charismatic A.Hitler and his National Socialists)
You can read the full story of the Militant controlled Liverpool City Council here.
So why didn't the party stand again? Surely as they were so popular they would have gained the majority again...
Esp when you consider that they left office in 1987, some 14 years ago...
After this the Socialist Alliance as an alliance by several small Marxist parties which has fielded many candidates in both local and national elections. It was the Socialist Alliance that campaigned to get Livingstone elected in the London Mayoral elections. The Socialist Party also has several councilors in local councils and has the MP David Nellist.
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk
Now read what I said.
I asked why the party didn't stand again, not the individuals. I know that they were barred.
So, if they were/are so popular why don't they control any local councils, and why only one MP?
Surely it could be because, in fact, they aren't popular.
Could it?
Not one their own it wasn't. I think you'll find that other people, with totally opposing agendas were involved too.
Funny how the Socialsist are willing to take credit for things for which they had minimal input, and yet never the blame for the things they actually did...
I was a leftist anarchist for a long time, until about a year ago. Now I still velive in many of the principles, but have come to realise that it will never be implemented. Now I may be an anarcho capitalist... it sounds about right, but I don't actually know the definition of one. I know for sure that Steelgates pathetic ramblings on this site have done more to turn me into a capitalist than anything else has.
Joke
Why don't anarchist drink herbal tea?
Because proper tea is theft
Proper tea.... property... oh, I kill me sometimes *wonders off*
Surely not :eek:
There's me thinking that his copy and paste jobs would convince us all about "the right way"... :rolleyes:
What was I saying about the majority of the population being turned off by him and his cronies...
Hmmm, yes. Indeed.
You do have a day job, don't you?
Globalise Resistance the voice of the UK anti-capitalist and anti-war movement.
As has been said elsewhere, 500k out of 55M isn't a huge turnout. Nowhere near a statement of, "Everyone is against war with Iraq."
And you will get an even larger shock - when it doesn't happen!
I hope that you realise that you when the demonstration takes place, and only three men and a dog show up, you will never be taken seriously. Each and everything that you say will be rebutted by your promises of a mass turn-out to this demonstration. Promises that you reneged on.
I would like to say in my defense that when I was a full anarchist, and when I say I still belive in many of the principles, I came up with my own thoughts and theories on them. I read the ideas, approved of them, and thought about them until I came up with my own ideas about what would be good in an anarchist society. I was not a thug, I was not someone who thought anarchy was chaos and lets hit a policeman... I was a peaceful demonstrator who could argue his points in a rational way.
And yes, I do have a day job
I work in a supermarket
The low turn out at most elections shows how unpopular the mainstream parties are anyway! I think a lot of people feel really let down by New Labour especially after it has gone back on its promises of an ethical arms selling policy and it plan to ban fox hunting aswell as many other things.
Globalise Resistance the voice of the UK anti-capitalist movement.
Surely that is irrelevant. You claimed that your policies are popular, that socialism is popular. Clearly it isn't.
You mean, they don't stand because they know that they won't get elected. The population isn't stupid you know, they can see crap policies easily enough.
Time after time people have rejected socialism. Accept it.
Yet you and your cronies still won't stand.
You offer a real alternative to these parties and yet you would rather sit a carp on about how bad capitalism is, and how the population supports your ideals yet you never put this to the test.
Why? Because you know these claims to be false. How many of your party members stood at the last election, and how many were actually elected?
and how many lost their deposits? How many finished in the top three, for their constituency?
You are right, it will be a shock. No doubt you'll be on here the day after claiming that is exactly what happened. Of course, we will all know differently.
BTW You cannot count people watching your little demo, everyone you pass on the route, like you usually do. You can only count the people actally taking part.
Also note, the anti capitalist movement is easily stopped. But it is in the interests for the UK Govt to make sure it continues. If ever there was anything to turn people off anti-capitalism, it is the anti-capitalists themselves.
Also the coming anti-war march will be massive as one hundred coaches are coming to it from Birmingham alone! Anyone who supports the coming war with Iraq is as evil as Saddam Hussein himself as this coming war if it happens will kill, maim and injure tens of thousands of Iraqi people and completely destory one of the poorest countries in the world!
Thats what I hate about people in Britain is their sheer hypocracy, while on one hand they make a huge fuss about the murder of two English children in Soham on the other they don't seem to care about the murder by sanctions of 600,000 Iraqi children! Those Iraqi deaths are murder two murders committed by the governments of the west!!!:mad:
Globalise Resistance voice of the UK anti-capitalist movement
Surely the "anti" movement isn't just against everything?
Interesting. Says he, on his personal computer, sitting in his home, via a telecom connection (probably World com owned), using electricity and resources provided for by the capitalist system itself.
Steelgate, how about a little proposal. Can you demonstrate to us that you are a true and committed Marxist?
You, as the proletariat, control the means of production of your input to this site. You have control of the quota of posts, of the method of posting, and of the quality, quantity and direction of said posts.
So.
As a Marxist, you propose that we should produce for need as directed by the people, not for market reasons, correct?
Well, we, as the people, need you to stop. Therefore, as a committed Marxist, you should obey the will of the people, and act upon your means of production to cease the posting, before capitalism overcomes your precious little world!
Have a nice day.