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A drawing of the Prophet Mohammed...

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On the issue of drawing Muhammad:

    In 1989, there was outrage across the Muslim world when Salman Rushdie wrote a sentence of two about Muhammad in his book (which I haven't read btw).

    How would you compare that outrage with the outrage to this facebook group (which is much worse)? If anything, the outrage now is probably less.

    Surely this shows that breaking these taboos is a good thing and eventually Muslims will become immune to the fact that there are people out there who are NOT obliged to respect Muhammad and these people will say and draw what they think about him.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sanitize wrote: »
    On the issue of drawing Muhammad:

    In 1989, there was outrage across the Muslim world when Salman Rushdie wrote a sentence of two about Muhammad in his book (which I haven't read btw).

    How would you compare that outrage with the outrage to this facebook group (which is much worse)? If anything, the outrage now is probably less.

    Surely this shows that breaking these taboos is a good thing and eventually Muslims will become immune to the fact that there are people out there who are NOT obliged to respect Muhammad and these people will say and draw what they think about him.

    What about the perfectly innocent muslims who wouldnt hurt a fly, but are still hurt by what they view as an attack on their religion.

    The statement you make is akin to saying if we keep on hounding them, they will eventually be less muslim than before.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, they have a right to be offended. They do not have a right, however, to threaten violence, less to to commit it, against anyone who they deem to have offended them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Well, they have a right to be offended. They do not have a right, however, to threaten violence, less to to commit it, against anyone who they deem to have offended them.

    So while I admit its quite a few that do, its not all muslims, so the blanket response many give to this situation is uncalled for.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    So while I admit its quite a few that do, its not all muslims, so the blanket response many give to this situation is uncalled for.

    Oh I agree. I've never been one to suggest all or most Muslims adhere to the fundamentalist view of things. As a matter of fact I know a number of them and they couldn't be further from such positioning.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I bet they get really fucked off with both people who offend their religion, and then also those who react to the offense in a violent manner.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, couldn't blame them. Extremists do their cause no favours.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    I bet they get really fucked off with both people who offend their religion, and then also those who react to the offense in a violent manner.

    The very idea of offending a religion is ludicrous though, which is the whole point. Being offended because someone mocked your religion is literally as pathetic as being offended because someone mocked your favourite musician or the political party you happen to support. And okay, some people get passionate about both of these, but that's what leads to debate and discussion, which is the single most important part of freedom of speech, particularly in a democracy, which relies on the free exchange of ideas. Every single claim of offence is purely about stifling debate about a particular subject. It's a way of avoiding having your views publicly challenged, which is why it's so popular in religions, because they don't tend to stand up well when subjected to rational debate.

    In a democracy, people's personal belief systems have an effect on us all, because they vote according to them. That's why it's important that they're challenged, publicly. And of course, anything called "everyone draw Muhammad day" is going to attract all sorts of crude, disgusting and downright inaccurate portrayals, but the net effect of all of the drawings makes an important point about taboos and what I would say amounts to idol worship in its most extreme form (ironically in breach of God's commandment).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can remember as a child at infant school we were sometimes told to draw a picture of the nativity, no one ever thought drawing pictures of Jesus was offensive. So why are muslims so offended with any depiction of their prophet Mohammed? Under Islam it is supposed to be most offensive to depict and prophet or Allah in a drawing. That is plain madness.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just to say, I'm going to move most of the EDF discussion from this thread over into the other thread specifically about them - so please excuse any disruption :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    I can remember as a child at infant school we were sometimes told to draw a picture of the nativity, no one ever thought drawing pictures of Jesus was offensive. So why are muslims so offended with any depiction of their prophet Mohammed? Under Islam it is supposed to be most offensive to depict and prophet or Allah in a drawing. That is plain madness.

    So Muslims believe that it's sinful to depict the image of Muhammed. So what? It's probably related to them not wanting him to become an 'idol' such as what has happened to the image of Jesus within Roman Catholic churches. He's always either a helpless baby or he's dead on the cross. Wasn't his resurrection meant to be a 'triumph'?

    So I could say that it's plain madness that you believe in the Bible. Adam and Eve? Jonah and the whale? Virgin birth? Turning water into wine? Resurrection? Ascending into heaven? That's all quite implausible to me but it's what you believe. Cool. But it's no less mad than believing that Muhammed should not be depicted in any way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    So why are muslims so offended with any depiction of their prophet Mohammed?

    Because they are.

    Why are christians so offended by things like this, this and this.

    Because they are.

    It isn't the offence that's the issue, it's the reaction to it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    So I could say that it's plain madness that you believe in the Bible. Adam and Eve? Jonah and the whale? Virgin birth? Turning water into wine? Resurrection? Ascending into heaven? That's all quite implausible to me but it's what you believe. Cool. But it's no less mad than believing that Muhammed should not be depicted in any way.
    Most christians do not believe in Adam and Eve or Jonah and the Whale! Those are stories from the Old Testament! Most Christians agree that the 'Old Testament' is mostly made up of myths and legends and cannot be taken as word for word true.

    Christians do believe though in the death and resurrection of Jesus and his miracles. That is what is central to the Christian faith. There were large numbers of witnesses to these events. Many people have also had supernatural experiences regarding Christianity such as faith healings etc.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    Most christians do not believe in Adam and Eve or Jonah and the Whale! Those are stories from the Old Testament! Most Christians agree that the 'Old Testament' is mostly made up of myths and legends and cannot be taken as word for word true.
    Unfortunately you are wrong. A disturbingly high number of Christians, for instance, believe in Creationism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Unfortunately you are wrong. A disturbingly high number of Christians, for instance, believe in Creationism.

    Id say the majority of americans believe in creationism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    Most christians do not believe in Adam and Eve or Jonah and the Whale! Those are stories from the Old Testament! Most Christians agree that the 'Old Testament' is mostly made up of myths and legends and cannot be taken as word for word true.

    Christians do believe though in the death and resurrection of Jesus and his miracles. That is what is central to the Christian faith. There were large numbers of witnesses to these events. Many people have also had supernatural experiences regarding Christianity such as faith healings etc.


    Well, the Old Testament prophesied the arrival of Christ so, according to you, that must fall under 'myth and legend' too. Kinda pulls the rug out from under the New Testament, doesn't it? Or are you going to pick and choose what is, and isn't, myth as long as it is convenient to you? But I note that you didn't defend the New Testament 'myths and legends', like the Virgin birth, or turning water into wine, or the resurrection from the dead, or for Jesus physically ascending into heaven. Why are these 'miracles' that you defend, more believable than Jonah and the whale?

    And regarding 'supernatural experiences regarding Christianity such as faith healings', why are the majority of Christians NOT healed when sick? It seems to be a tiny minority. These 'miracles' are so rare that when they do seem to occur, one can safely put that down to coincidence. And these 'healings' always seem to occur inside the body - not on the physical exterior of a person. So when did you last a man with no eyes see again? Or a person have their amputated arm regrown? Now those WOULD be miracles. Seems Jesus can't quite manage those tricks, huh? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    Christians do believe though in the death and resurrection of Jesus and his miracles. That is what is central to the Christian faith. There were large numbers of witnesses to these events. Many people have also had supernatural experiences regarding Christianity such as faith healings etc.

    Lol, which resurrection is this then? The one as accounted for in three of the gospels, or the one where vast numbers of others were also resurrected? Or the countless others that occurred in the religions that christianity was plagerized from? As for faith healings, even if there was the slightest bit of evidence for them, how would that be evidence that christianity was true rather than the many millions of other religions?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    Well, the Old Testament prophesied the arrival of Christ so, according to you, that must fall under 'myth and legend' too. Kinda pulls the rug out from under the New Testament, doesn't it? Or are you going to pick and choose what is, and isn't, myth as long as it is convenient to you? But I note that you didn't defend the New Testament 'myths and legends', like the Virgin birth, or turning water into wine, or the resurrection from the dead, or for Jesus physically ascending into heaven. Why are these 'miracles' that you defend, more believable than Jonah and the whale?

    Well there is literally no defending their religion. The whole thing is a fucking joke. I'm absolutely astonished that the whole thing is still taken seriously.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well there is literally no defending their religion. The whole thing is a fucking joke. I'm absolutely astonished that the whole thing is still taken seriously.
    Here is the evidence for Christianity then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTSYQgaVsyI

    If Christianity was all a load of rubbish then why is the Alpha course which is a course aimed at athiests and agnostics such a rip roaring success? 15 million have taken the course so far see this: http://www.alpha.org/
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    Here is the evidence for Christianity then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTSYQgaVsyI

    If Christianity was all a load of rubbish then why is the Alpha course which is a course aimed at athiests and agnostics such a rip roaring success? 15 million have taken the course so far see this: http://www.alpha.org/
    Oh dear... are you really judging the worth of a religion by the sucess or othewise of a highy dubious cult-like indoctrination course run by nutjobs?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    Here is the evidence for Christianity then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTSYQgaVsyI

    That's not 'evidence'. That is conjecture and opinion based on the Bible and someone's personal, but unprovable, experience.

    But wait! The guy mentioned the Old Testament! You don't believe in the Old Testament!
    Goldsword wrote: »
    If Christianity was all a load of rubbish then why is the Alpha course which is a course aimed at athiests and agnostics such a rip roaring success? 15 million have taken the course so far see this: http://www.alpha.org/

    And the Alpha Course. 15 million people may have taken the course but can you supply me with accurate figures of how many have MAINTAINED a committed faith afterwards? If it's just 1% of that, I'd be surprised.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    Here is the evidence for Christianity then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTSYQgaVsyI

    That's not evidence, that's a bunch of powerpoint slides.

    I could knock up a few slides about Voodoo or Wicca. Will you swallow that load too?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword believes anything he sees on the internet.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    Here is the evidence for Christianity then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTSYQgaVsyI

    If Christianity was all a load of rubbish then why is the Alpha course which is a course aimed at athiests and agnostics such a rip roaring success? 15 million have taken the course so far see this: http://www.alpha.org/

    Lol, aimed at atheists and agnostics? This shit is no different from psychics. The only people who are going to sign up for something like this are people who either already believe it, or aren't sure what they believe, but feel they have something missing in their lives. It was designed as an introduction to those interested in the Christian faith. That doesn't sound like a description of atheists to me. You have to at least suspect that a god exists before you start getting into a religion for which that is a core belief. And the Alpha Course must be doing a rip-roaring trade, which is why your religion has declined consistently for decades. Fewer people go to church, and more and more people specifically identify themselves as non-religious. If anything, the Alpha Course is a symptom of a failing religion desperately trying to hold onto its numbers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    Goldsword believes anything he sees on the internet.
    No I don't. I read books as well! One of the books that brought me back to Christ was this one:
    51RKU1JpPFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
    That book changed my view of christianity completely.

    I was made to attend church as child but did not stick with the religon. By the age of about 12 I no longer thought that the story of Jesus was true. It was only when I started doing my own research into the matter that I later changed my mind.

    I have also heard too many first hand stories of things like faith healings etc to know that there must be some truth to Christianity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Goldsword wrote: »
    I have also heard too many first hand stories of things like faith healings etc to know that there must be some truth to Christianity.

    Oh come on, dude.... really?

    Sam Harris has an excellent rebuttal of these claims: extract from larger speech here.

    Check out the fellow he's talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba

    You know you never hear about people who have lost limbs which faith healing helped them regrow...
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