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I get called a "paki shagger" on a daily basis. Now you cant tell me thats because of my boyfriends religion? If he was white they wouldnt know he was a muslim! Its because hes got different skin if you like. Thats race.
Most the groups i help shut down are hate groups towards muslims and it really annoys me. It annoys me when i see any type of hate to any person, religion, race, sexuality etc etc...
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=122422947769479
This might prove a point that they dont ALL want to fight and cause death upon anybody. Just a few nutters who do, as we have in every country, every religion etc etc.
If you expect people to take your opinions seriously then of course you have to justify them, especially in a politics and debate forum; your opinion doesn't hold weight just because you hold it.
I think your toys need to go back in the pram.
The word you are looking for is prejudice, not racist. What you're talking about can be classed in the same boat as racism. Not all Muslims are black.
What you're forgetting too is it isn't always hate, it's a form of opinion. Do you support Sharia law too? This is verging off-topic but I just wanted to ask.
Thats my opinion, most people understood it, i dont have to go justifying it.i dont have to justify why i think its wrong to be racist or prejudicst? pretty self explanatory there.
And no my toys DO NOT have to go in the pram and how dare you! Ive simply had enough of the racist and prejudice id seen and that day, yes that day i was in a very bad mood, which ive stated, having seen a facebook page with a picture of 50 muslims all set on fire and 50,000 people liked this, let alone the comments posted- along with all the other pages- then stumble upon this- i was in a pretty foul mood.
Perhaps not racist, but i was in a rush whilst writing and its very difficult to get your opinion out when your in a rush!. Comments werent all particuraly nice, and no not all muslims are black, But from personal experience, most people in this country see someone of different colour skin and straight away their "paki's" or "chinks" or "niggas" . and you know perfectly well what im talking about. and i love how the fact its me deffending as usual, and being made to deffend why im deffending. Why? why is there any need? Its my opinion- end of.
I DONT LIKE RACISM OR PREJUDICE OF ANY KIND!
Is that my opinion justified enough?
Sharia Law? Im not a muslim, sharia law doesnt apply to me, question answered? Yes. Grow the hell up.
However, most of the comments you made have absolutely no place in this thread. If you have encountered a facebook group which consists of bigoted comments then that is a matter for you and that facebook group. I don't know why you're bringing it into this thread because as far as I can see, there were absolutely no bigoted or racist comments in this thread. There were legitimate criticisms, but there was no bigotry or racism AT ALL.
It's commendable that you disputed and argued against the bigots in that facebook group, and I hope you continue to do so in the future, but please distinguish between legitimate criticism of Islam, and racism/bigotry towards people. I hope we're all mature and grown up enough to make this distinction.
Douglas Murray said it perfectly at the end of this video. He said:
I think it's incredibly important what we do not fall into the trap of thinking that thugs and racists, which many of us repeatedly condemn, have anything to do with the perfectly legitimate criticism of forms of Islam which are themselves fascistic, which are themselves racist, and themselves bigoted. We have the right to stand between these two extremes and say that we would like neither.
- An inordinate amount of arrogant pride about their religion
- Look down on other faiths and belief systems
- Believe that converting others to their faith is fine, but woe betide any muslim who renounces Islam
- Many, see no problem in violence to "defend" Islam
The amount of violence being committed by Muslims in the name of Islam is mind boggling. Whats worse is it is often attributed to non Muslims as Muslims can "never hurt other Muslims", its pretty delusional, is what it is.
Being aware of and wary of a belief system that justifies violence and bigotry is not prejudice, its common sense. I was fairly pro Muslim and as gung ho about defending Islam from them nasty bigots, as you were at one time, unfortunately or fortunately, I saw far too many incidents of Muslim bigotry versus non Muslim, and the former justifying it as Islamic, with no guilt whatsoever.
A lot of this directly flows from Muhammad, who was, by several accounts, including those of his biographers, a very violent man, and by todays standards, a brutal warlord. I am not a Christian, but if I compare the life of Jesus to that of Mohammad, the difference could not be starker. One tried non violence throughout, the other was fond of violence, to the very end and his followers have been violent thereafter throughout. The amount of blood spilt by Muslims, the rapine and pillaging done by them is akin to Pizarros antics many times over, but the difference is that the former is recognised as a barbarian, the latter, well most of them are rightly guided caliphs and what not, and say one word out of turn, and some muslim somewhere will spend the rest of his life trying to kill you. If thats not a death cult, what is.
Absolutely well said.
Forms of Islam is a well sited nuance. Problem is many of the majority forms of Islam, such as Deobandi, Barelvi et al, can be pretty nasty. Its one thing to say "i believe in x" quite another to say "i believe in x and your y is wrong, it deserves to be stamped out, and i am entitled to do so, because i am muslim, and islam is perfect, so i am actually doing great work"..and if you criticize this attitude, you'll be called racist, islamphobe etc.
I dont like racism, prejudice or any discrimination towards any one in anyway!
Like ive said there are good and bad in every country, religion etc. Not all muslims are the same, so dont tar with the same brush.
This will be my final post in this thread. Im not going to deffend this anymore, this is rediculous.
Well, if you are not bothered about whats what in ANY religion, then how can you start a facebook page saying you like/support Mohammad? How can you like/support anyone or anything unless you have some researched facts to back your opinion up? Do you shop for clothes that are not your size or books that you dont read?
What I, and others have pointed out to you, is that you cant even understand or even attempt to understand that criticism of Islam is not racism or prejudice or discrimination. Its merely exercising a fundamental right which is enshrined in several western societies. And this criticism is based on what we believe to be grounded facts
OTOH, you dont know much about Islam apparently, and dont even care, yet you dismiss those who hold a contrary viewpoint from yours as having a prejudiced or racist viewpoint!
Now, not all Muslims may be the same - that by the way is the usual response trotted out in debates of this nature, but question is how many are either extremist or hold views which are not of worth in a civilized society?
Do us a favour, on that I love Muhammad webpage, run a poll saying"
- Do you also love Jesus, Krishna, Buddha
- Do you support the life/liberty of gays in Muslim countries
- Can Muslims convert freely to other religions
Lets see the responses then. Its easy to accuse everyone else of prejudice, but when we , see the responses to your above poll, especially regionally, I think things will be much clearer.
Unless more and more people stand up to islams more fascist tendencies, things will only get worse.
When you start describing your personal viewpoints as that of a collective - 'when we see the responses to the above poll' - then it presents a pretty strange picture of where you're coming from.
When someone is describing personal experiences of prejudice and bullying based on their relationship that has to be equally as valid as your own personal experiences. To imply that they don't have the right to feel offended or attacked by those comments without a detailed knowledge of Islam seems wholly without empathy.
It hardly seems necessary to have a fundamental understanding of Islam to know that someone screaming 'paki shagger' is doing it out of hate. A little compassion for someone who has clearly experienced some quite unpleasant abuse wouldn't be too much to ask for.
What concerns me however is when the r-word gratuitously and unnecessarily enters a perfectly legitimate discussion about Islam, and then the whole discussion shuts down. People have genuine concerns. Not prejudicial concerns based on ignorance, but genuine informed concerns based solid evidence. If well-meaning, decent individuals aren’t allowed to air these genuine concerns, and if they’re constantly silenced and called the r-word, then they will become disillusioned and things will only fester.
This will only drives people underground and they may end up supporting organisations and partys which are, lets say, beyond the pale.
Now anyway, to the present day, and there may be something in what you're saying. However, it is dependent on many factors. You see the reason why Christianity doesn't have the attitudes you mention isn't because Christianity reformed itself, it's because of the emergence of secularism. It has been forced to reform itself, after centuries of being the equivalent to Islam today. Islam, on the other hand, is still predominantly based in what are effectively theocracies, ruled by people practising the most literal forms of the religion, where as I mentioned earlier, you can be offered guidelines on what sexual activity with your infant wife is acceptable and what isn't. This is what happens when you let any country fall into the hands of conservative religious fundamentalists. Look at Spain under Franco ffs. The Catholic church has never been afraid of inflicting its interpretation of the bible on entire countries whether they agree with it or not. And so what you have is vastly different muslim populations throughout Europe, depending on where they originate, and from where they're getting their teachings. In the UK, most of our muslims are of Pakistani origins, which I'm sure I don't need to tell you, isn't a shining example of religious liberalism. A lot of the religious teachings can be traced back to the Wahhabi bigots of Saudi Arabia, who use their oil money to export their particularly toxic brand of Islam around the world (adding in the odd anti-semitic line to the text, when the urge arises). Now while the effect of this by the time it reaches Britain is diluted, there's still enough there for our country to perhaps have a larger number of the sorts of bigots or potential terrorists you talk about than some other countries.
In Germany, on the other hand, the vast majority of the muslims are of Turkish origin, where most people are muslim, but the country is secular, and the brand of Islam tends to reflect the sort that isn't imposed on people (well no more than religion is in general). As a result, in a recent poll of muslim attitudes in Germany, they were found to be pretty much in line with the general population of the country. In France and the Netherlands, I believe most come from North Africa, which may be somewhere between the two. But I think the issue here is firstly the origins of the people we're talking about and the status of Islam in those countries, and then the origins of the religious hierarchy of the community, which is likely to be from the same country as the people's ethnic background. And an Imam coming in from Pakistan is likely to be more extreme or literal than one coming in from Turkey.
And of course the only majority muslim country in Europe is Albania, where 80% of the population identify as muslim, but in reality, it is one of the most secular and atheistic countries in the world (in fact, it was the only officially atheistic state in history - which was just as bad as an officially religious state, incidentally), with most people identifying as a particular religion only in the cultural sense.
But Jim is right. It is without doubt that there are vast swathes of the population for which "muslim" is the new "paki." Let's not pretend that the BNP has changed tact because of a well thought through critique of Islam. They've just realised that you can attack a religious group (which effectively attacks a particular race in the communities they stand in), and claim you're just concerned about the influence of Islam.
If any Muslim spokesperson (who likes to speak on behalf of the Muslim community) complains about the targeted “offensiveness” of this episode of South Park towards Muslims, and how Muslims are supposedly being demonised and victimised and what-have-you, then I would thoroughly disagree.
This cartoon infact shows the complete opposite.
The fact is that this episode of South Park consists of religious figures from ALL of the worlds major religions. So this clearly shows that Muslims are not treated any better, or any worse than anyone else.
This cartoon shows that the makers of South Park expect Muslims to be treated exactly the same as every other religious group.
Now surely you can’t complain about that? Unless the Muslim spokespeople expect the Muslim faith to be above and beyond every other religion and to have special treatment... :chin:
In Christianity the Bible literalists lost out to the none literalists. Many fundementalist Bible literalists still remain though. The Catholic church is still mostly fundementalist for example. There was a good book written called Stealing Jesus which attacks the fundamentalists as being in reality unchristian.
As a christian I have always been a none fundamentalist who believes the Bible needs interpretation to understand its message.
x</3x has been blathering on for pages and pages making all sorts of ridiculous slurs and statements...
...yet Arecherb is pulled up for responding, albeit a bit rudely, in frustration to x</3x's torrent of tripe. Arecherb makes a number of cogent arguments and astute observations, which I think are valuable and constructive to the discussion around religiously-based censorship.
It's sad that overly-emotional slurs and shit-flinging are going unchastened, while criticism thereof is condemned.
It seemed important to point out this mistake, given she was being presented not as an individual with experiences to share but as an organiser for a religious group.
Though people are clearly very emotional about this issue, it seems valid to make sure that people have a right to express their own feelings without feeling it has to pass some test before it becomes valid.
However, you're right that some of x</3x's posts have been equally dismissive of other people's viewpoints - so we'll be taking a closer look at all future posts in this thread.
I didn't disingenuously decide to remove anything. I clipped your quote simply out of courtesy to readers - my qualm was 90% other people's posts, as it was.
I'm not necessarily defending anything other posters have said. I was just puzzled at how x</3x had been allowed to be pretty personal and ridiculous for pages, and how Archerb had been pulled up over one indiscretion.
Ah, come on now, man. I'm not asking people to pass tests to participate. I'm just looking for something a bit more than "my opinion is you're a racist, I don't have to justify it. I'm leaving the internets, no return-ies".
Couldnt have said it better myself!
I do NOT run that website, I was using it as an example to prove not all muslims want violence!
I have PLENTY of knowledge about Islam considering i have lived In an Islamic country for the past 6 months.
Im not screaming "become a muslim!!" or telling anyone muslim is a great religion- I'm christian but im not at all religious. I'm just saying i dont like racism or prejudice towards anyone, and from my own PERSONAL experience, most that ive seen has been directed towards muslims. And id argue until i was blue in the face for any religion,person, cause etc if i didnt agree with something! I dont need to justify MY opinion.
I havent called anyone racist, I left my first comment because i could see things getting out of hand and Islam was getting slated, all i wanted to do was share my opinion, and point out not all muslims will have been offended by it! And from that its escalated to me being in the wrong for putting my opinion forward. No religion is perfect. But people should be more tolerant and understanding and realise not everybody believes the same, thinks the same or gives a damn about their religion!
Im not saying south park were wrong for the cartoon, They always do things like this to different people of every religion, But people were discussing how muslims were being too extreme and think they are higher status because they are muslim etc, i was pointing out- No. SOME muslims are doing this, Not all. Not all will care! By posting the link i was showing Not all muslims want to respond with violence.
I was wrong. Continue with your cartoon discussion and ill keep my opinions to myself from now on.
I don't think posters here, at least most posters, feel you don't have a right to your own views - but just that in any debate people have the opportunity to highlight things people feel that they disagree with.
It's also worth pointing out that on the boards people are entitled to criticise and question any religion. That's not to say they are entitled to attack the followers of a religion or use those criticisms to justify stereotypes and prejudice, but religion isn't excluded from debate.
So whilst you don't have to justify your own opinion, it's something your always entitled to, the nature of this board is that people have a right to question those opinions even if that's something you don't want to respond to.
Whats ridiculous is your taking statements out of context and then selectively quoting them. The point was that Jesus himself was no Mohammad, irrespective of how much fire and brimstone his followers preached in his name. And the greater point was, that his followers are not as dangerous today as they were in the years past. Your statements above are typical of the artifice one faces when talking of Islam. Because somebody will bring up Polynesian skull bashers and then say "aha they were more violent" or say that the headhunters in the Asian subcontinent were better at beheading than the Turks who spread Islam. For better or worse, most of the competing (in the violence category) religions are trying to redeem themselves (as in their followers) while the average Muslim in many parts of the world continues to believe that Muslims are discriminated against, and they need no reformation but the world needs to be "less biased". If you had cared to read, I specifically mentioned Pizarro earlier (the same genocidal lunatic who devastated South America) - so much for my giving other religions a free pass.
Now, you are getting there. The problem is that the kind of incisive logic or rather sheer frustration that dismantled the writ of the church in day to day life is unlikely to happen in the Middle East and Asia, because even criticizing Islam is frowned upon, in many cases with punishment due to death. Its a competition between the public, the mullahs and the Govt to see who can be more loony, in this three legged race. Criticism of Islam is essential to its reformation.
See, the problem is not just the theocracies and the states of Pakistan, KSA etc. The problem is also with ostensible democracies like India, UK etc where criticism of Islam is frowned on because its either considered non PC, or racist or anti-secular. The end result is that the only cones who will speak up are often the most extreme right wing orgs which further vitiates the issue. Not to mention that the so called civil society is often at the mercy of Islamists. I am aware of several cases where Muslims have committed acts of wanton violence, created go-no go areas for non Muslims, and the states in question will not even question it. To some extent, it is also because the community acts extremely monolithic in matters of voting and creates a vote bank which politicians are loath to upset. The end result is that civil societies/westernised societies are often as craven as theocracries when it comes to talking about Islam.
Times are changing. Erdogans govt has made it ok to be fundamentalist in Turkey, and how long do you think it will be before the effects spread to Germany? These kind of memes spread fast.
The problem is that those old assumptions no longer hold true thanks to the global world we live in, with much easier communication, and the rampant funding available to fundamentalists. Literalist Islam (and there lies the basic point, wherein literalism leads to extremism, and why would it, unless the basic text et al had a fair amount of bloodthirsty lessons) is widely spreading across most regions and the so called liberal muslims, considered ok versus their more extreme counterparts are often as illiberal in terms of faith, respecting other faiths and positions on gay/other social issues.
Albania may be more the exception than the rule. Especially if one goes by the more populous countries in Asia, where extremist Islam is on the rise.
Could be. I make no bones about my dislike for such people, as I make no bones about my dislike about the fascist tendencies in Islam as it is practised today.
Well madam I have lived amongst and with muslims for over 20 + years, kindly allow me to tell you that I daresay my comments come with a tad more feeling and understanding, than you give me credit for. I also speak the local lingo which allows me to understand what is being said most of the time, if not all. I also have had many folks whom I continue to respect - they were muslim (and are still) and in fact, some of my observations of worry, come from observing how Islam affected the people around them, and the effect it has on societies per se.
Therein lies the issue. You are not at all religious, so you would fit in with most folks who are/are not religious as long as they were not openly obnoxious. Have you considered what happens to folks who are very religious, and yet live with/and in proximity to muslims in non western countries? Every x period, a mullah comes in, stirs sh*t up (pardon my language, but I did need to get the point across) and that nice neighbour who would come and borrow your bike is now staring daggers at you, and mutters about how your pagan ways offend him. Try going to school sometime wherein most of the students are muslim, and by virtue of indoctrination, gang up against non muslims. The amount of problems that are extant in current day islam, as it interacts with non muslims are legion, and the problems extend rapidly if you are religious. Try taking your procession through a muslim area with your holy icon or whatever, after a mullahs been around.
When you confuse reasoned critique, with racism or prejudice and then smack opinions around, wouldnt you think a reply would be warranted? Please consider your own quotes above
Is criticism of Islam = Islam getting slated? Dont you admit, ma'am that you have a problem with criticism per se?
Reference your last line - again, kindly follow my suggestion and start an other religions appreciation thread amongst the respect mohammad page. You'll notice 9/10 "respects" coming from westernized muslims, and that too, the majority of muslims in Asia, Middle East not even posting there. Problem is the latter are the majority, and the former are not too far away in terms of opinion on certain key areas from the latter either. Kindly google Irshad Manji.
Problem is a very substantial number across the world care, and many of those who do will even resort to violence. You do have to understand what I am trying to say, if you wish to look beyond considering me as slating Islam as versus criticising it. The problem is that in the Sunni faith, criticising Islam or depicting Mohammad or even discussing the caliphs in a non hagiographic light is considered as akin to apostasy. Add this issue to the perception that dying in the glory of Islam aka defending the religion is a get you to a nice place card in the afterlife, and there is no shortage of volunteers to do a violent act.
There you go again. If this discussion is a cartoon discussion because folks dont necessarily agree with you, what would be a non cartoon discussion like?
When did I say that I was not speaking as an individual? Furthermore, the site was pointed to as an example of "the right thing" - my simple point was that just starting or being a participant on a page which says respect mohammad is not an example of the right thing, when many of the participants on that page, would not deign to return the courtesy. Thats my point - that while, many twist themselves into knots trying to be understanding, and overly accomodative to Islam - the respect does not flow the other way in turn. In all these days, I simply have not seen the respect that Muslims demand they be given on account of their faith, reciprocated by them when it comes to other religions.
I think it should have been fairly clear to anyone reading the above, that it was a figure of speech. If I said, "when one sees the response to the above poll" - would it have been akin to saying only I read the above poll, and nobody else? I am sorry to say, but you are clutching at straws here.
Excuse me - but if a person suffers prejudice, then assumes that everyone else who is speaking from a different point of view, is prejudiced, is that right? I fear you entirely missed the boat here. I am not saying that what happened to x3 was right. I am merely pointing out the other side of the coin. Some idiots may have called her names on account of her personal relationship, however, the fact is that many muslims do far worse and that is an equally worrisome aspect. The mere fact that folks raise this does not make them prejudiced.
I have all the compassion for someone who suffers personal abuse of any sort. However, her posts simply lacked coherence, wherein she conflated her personal issues with a bunch of bigots, and assumed that all those who criticise Islam are apparently bigots and need to be countered. Hence all those posts about "I cant stand...". Let me ask you this, if you as a Christian (as a figure of speech, lest you take it literally), are appalled by the recent (in)actions of the Church (whichever?) regarding the scandals - and make pointed observations, does it justify someone saying how he/she was attacked by those who didnt like christians, and then posting on the lines of all those criticize aforesaid actions, are ergo bigots. Yes, a certain amount of empathy is natural, and it is given - but one would also definitely point out it was illogical.
My point was and is, that countering those who go and say "paki s...." is fine, but also think of those who face not just hurtful words but actual violence because everyday muslims, living, breathing normal people like you and I, end up physically attacking folks for relatively trivial issues. And when a counterreaction occurs, the usual reaction from the so called muslim bodies is almost never "how do we fix this", it is "islam is right, it can never be wrong, either embrace the faith or else". And then a facile call for talks is made, wherein a couple of talking heads go on the TV etc, yack around and the cycle repeats.
I believe you may consider me rude. Perhaps I am and I was. But it was unintentional. I was just being blunt. Because in my admittedly own opinion, the views expressed by x3 are shockingly one sided wherein she was unable to determine that islam as it stands does cause folks who evaluate it to be worried, and they too have a right to be worried, as she has every right to lead her own life