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Should education continue to 18?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
The Edge Learner Forum is a network of young people from across England who aim to promote practical learning and show there are many different ways to be successful. The Forum has been in touch with TheSite.org as they want young people aged between 10 and 25 to get involved with the Youth Commission – a national investigation into the views of young people about the future of education which will directly reach the Government’s education ministers. The Youth Commission came about because of the Government’s decision to raise the education participation age to 18.
If you have strong views on this and want to have your say, head on over to take part in the Youth Commission survey.
If you have strong views on this and want to have your say, head on over to take part in the Youth Commission survey.
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So should compulsary education continue to 18?
I'm not particularly keen on the idea of throwing a bunch of kids into something they don't really want to do. I think at that age, education gets a lot more serious for a lot of people, and the last thing you want is to be in a class full of people who don't really want to be there.
Exploitation of 16-17 year olds in the UK labour market has been widepspread for years.
Education isn't just about spending time in a classroom. It's possible to do BTECs and NVQs, which involve spending time in a workplace too.
agreed
For further education after GCSEs you really need to apply yourself, so if somebody doesn't want to do that it's seems pointless. They're not going to get a good grade out of it and it will surely just clog the system up?
I agree. This would just ruin further education for everyone, and result in lower grades generally, because most people would not want to be there. Whowhere has a good point, when I was 14 there would only be about a third of the class in everyday, and half of them wouldn't do any work.
I'm 18 now, and I regret not staying in college when I was sixteen. Hell, in other ways it's made me greatful as I've learned more about what I want to pursue, but I still regret it since I see other people, friends, family all leaving college getting their grades, then heading off to university in a new light. But I hated school and I hated college. It's not the education or anything it's the crowds of people, the FORCING of socialising during college hours, and then there's the waiting for others to catch up on simple tasks.
I would say there's better alternatives, like online education. Perhaps the government should spend funding on allowing people to pursue college or online. Or even paid qualifications. What I wanted to learn I can't because it's not on the national system, it's an external examination board. They can still monitor my progress like they would if I visited a college campus. Just means I don't have to leave the house, I use my internet. Typical router, I learn, if I don't learn enough I fail the exam (Which they govern anyway by the standards of the examination.)
If the government are really worried about further education then they should maybe look into how they can improve colleges rather than wasting a lot of teaching, money and resources on students who are kept in school and don't want to learn.
Thing is, if you take a kid at 16 who has completed their GCSEs or whatever, what is the harm in giving them 2 years education in some form of skills or trade if they don't want to do a classical education?
I mean, rather than them going to work as a laborer or something they would have to instead do a qualification in city and guilds construction or i dont know. Just food for thought tho.
Just seems to me someone leaving school at 16 with no 'skills' as such is a bit of a waste, the country may as well pay for them to have some form of training or education in something they can do so they can contribute effectively for the next 40 years or so rather than going from job to job as a retail assistant or temporary factory worker or something.
Something that is really missing in the UK these days is the idea of a vocation. Of a career or job that is 'your calling'. People should do something that ideally they enjoy but more than that, something that they can do effectively to contribute to society. Instead we have a generation of people just going from job to job not caring about the 'end product' and just about the paycheck and how they can get trashed this weekend.
Oh, one other question. Am I doing one of these meaningless jobs, ShyBoy? Firstly, we're in the middle of the biggest recession in many years. Where are all these jobs that people are meant to go to? Secondly, every single job contributes to our society in some form or another. What is this "end product" you speak of?
I liked that at the ages of 16/17 I was in classes with people who really wanted to be there for one reason or another.
Way to miss the point. Retail is great but the fact remains many people in retail have the potential to contribute much more but because they didn't like education they just went and got the first job they could, which as you say with tesco being one of the largest employers is going to be something like retail or warehouse work or something along those lines. Whilst those jobs are great for some there are many who would be better served doing something better. Think of all the people who simply can't get jobs because they can only do jobs like the above, because they haven't picked up any skills or trades. Keep them in mandatory education for another 2 years and make them learn a trade, then they have the option rather than having to wait for a spot in the lower end to open up for them.
I didn't say those jobs were meaningless, and I don't know if what you are doing counts as one or what. Don't you find it almost criminal though that someone who may well be able to become a competent plumber or gas engineer or whatever instead can only land a part time job shelf stacking? It would be fair enough if people knew what they wanted to do at 16 but most don't. But better to at least give them one skill they half-like than send them off dissillusioned with none.
Disillusionment because they were forced into that job leads to employer disattisfaction which leads to lesser quality of work but the incentive really isn't there. How many people do you know who go to work because they need to pay the bills? Who hate their jobs? Tonnes of people like retail work and warehouse work and that's absolutely fine, but the problem is those that don't, but because they made poor life decisions when they were 14/15/16 (understandably so!) they end up not having the choice to do something different.
I don't think it matters that we're in a recession because the economy is all about peaks and troughs and what I'm talking about is the long term benefit of giving kids an option. Give them an opportunity. Train them in something they naturally enjoy, whether that's sports or mechanics or whatever.
If they decide after doing that they don't want to do that job then fair enough, but at least you gave them the option. There's always a healthy demand for skilled worksmen / women too, even in the recession. People always need plumbers. Why do you think there were so many trained skilled people from poland coming here? We didn't have enough so prices were pushed up as anyone who has needed a plumber or mechanic will be able to attest to.
As for me, I work for an arcade. Is that a meaningless job to you? This point ignores the huge numbers of people who leave education for a few years and come back later, often with far more motivation to succeed. Besides, the idea of people having one job for life is long dead. They can often re-train whenever they like. Says who? There's nothing to stop someone from going back to education at a later date.
But some jobs and certain opportunities are better to take when you're young.
The thing is SG, that's great for some people. What about people who don't want to go into retail? But because they couldn't be arsed with school, they don't actually have much of a choice? It's not like there aren't people in that position. You seem to have the impression that everyone who gets a job gets it because thats the job they want. Last summer I literally was taking any job I could get because the market was particularly dry. And that may continue for a couple of years I'm sure but at least I'm trying to get skills and education that will allow me to get a job I like. If you like retail then that's great.
As for me saying 'better' what I meant (and I thought the meaning was obvious) was a job that the individual prefers over retail.
I agree that 50% going to university is over the top, although it was actually 50% to go to higher education (including vocational things) but still probably a high target considering not 50% of the population can do 'higher education' things out there in the careers market etc. So the reason you object to compulsory education until 18 is because you don't like the idiots in class? Maybe we should let them drop out at 10 years old then? I think we shouldn't write them off, especially if they leave school at 16 with no / few GCSEs many of them might just decide to give up the ghost and become a dolite. Maybe get into criminality. Maybe get a job and be paid much less than their coworkers.
All this would do is say, for the next two years they have to either do an apprenticeship, or an a level, or a gnvq, or some kind of job where they can learn some proper skills, so when they hit 18 they aren't in the same position with no qualifications, no skills and ultimately few prospects as when they were 16.
Of course it's not a meaningless job, I really don't know where you want to go with this, you just seem to be picking a fight. A job is a job that provides value, our job obviously provides a lot of value in helping to facilitate people's entertainment.
I'm not saying it would be one job for life, but one skill or qualification vs none. Then they have options and opportunities open to them. Like you say they can go back and retrain at any time. My dad joined the navy, learnt lots about engines and got healthy doses of various poisonings and raditionings, left the navy, became a salesmen, trained to be a plumber, then trained to be a gas engineer.
Back in ye olden days people used to learn something like that at school, now because they only do GCSEs and all this college stuff is optional, some just leave with basic GCSEs and then don't really know what to do next. Even if it wasnt 2 years, even just 6 months after GCSEs, I think if they are leaving formal education they should really have something tangible before they're allowed to 'graduate' so to speak otherwise they are just going to be stuck, frustrated, unable to get the job they want and deserve.
This will do fuck all for me.
What will get me far is the fact I've had a job since I was 16.
edit: just to add, what I'm writing is based on my personal experience. A few friends of mine left school at 16 because they felt they would be selfish to their parents continuing their studies. One did well and did some english language teaching in portugal but another just went from job they hated to job they hate. They even said to me they would have liked to go to university even but that they weren't suitable for it ???
She self relegated herself to someone who isn't entitled to an education and who isn't entitled to the 'high life' or whatever either. She lives pretty much hand to mouth and I keep trying to convince her to go to uni as she says thats what she wants to do but she says she can't afford it etc.
Similarly I have friends who left school at 16 who are still looking for a full time job, but just haven't really got round to it. But one or two of my friends did apprenticeships and the difference in job satisfaction is amazing. They have their own cars, buy what they want pretty much, they are enjoying their jobs and enjoying the rewards and also providing much needed skills to the community.
Based on maybe this polarised view I have personally had it seems that those who leave school at 16 have a 50/50 chance of getting a job they enjoy whether through training or whatever, and not really finding a job they fit in well with and going from job to job. People with further education (a levels etc.) whilst often you hear graduates moaning about not being able to find a graduate job from my experience generally find jobs they like (although most of my friends who graduated in the past few years all have extremely satisfying jobs that are annoyingly well paid). So I guess it's hard to imagine what it's like working a job you HATE but have no choice until you've actually been there! When I was working in the warehouse I saw it, and what I mean about the 'end product' is the staff hate their jobs and are on temporary rolling contracts anyway, so there is no real effort to avoid damaging products etc. and often I would see the other workers throwing stuff around almost recklessly. The management I would argue were worse because they despised the workforce and distrusted them, and because they didn't give anyone an employment contract they would exploit you or fire you. That's what it's like to work at the bottom end of the market
My friend is 21 this month so maybe in a few years she will feel confident enough to go do an access course then go to university to study archaeology (which is what she wanted to do since she was like, a baby) or maybe she will just never get round to it. It's her choice at the end of the day, it's just frustrating for me as I must admit I'm quite fond of her and have been for some years as a very close friend and it almost seems to me like she is throwing her potential away all because she would feel selfish going to university. Maybe she's fibbing and doesn't actually want to go to uni. Who knows?
If yes, I don't see the problem. It'll take more than a few talks to sort out, they'll need more options open, like I suggested, online education. Can be setup through Open Uni if need be. Only downside I could see with having it extended from 16-18 as legally required extended education is if a student enters the wrong course and wants to drop out, depending on how late in the course it is, it'll be a huge mess. Then it's a case of what to do with them during the time before they can re-join.
If they're under 25 and studying for their first level 3 (A level standard) or any age and studying for level (GCSE A* - C) they don't have to pay. And of course, they don't have to pay whilst on certain benefits.
Exactly. I had no idea what I wanted to do and got told it was normal at that age. Since then, I've done an AS level, NVQ year 1 and am now doing an Access course.
Is it just me, or is 6th form, university, etc forced upon everyone? I only know about NVQs because my mum has done 2 and mentioned them to me.
PRetty much, high schools that send students onto a levels are seen as more academic / higher performing, it's about those all important targets.