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Carol Thatcher's 'golliwog' remarks

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/03/bbc-drops-carol-thatcher

And now, of course, the right wing tabloids are speaking of 'conspiracies' and 'vendettas' because of her surname... :D

Maybe the tabloids feel hard done by that their favourite bogeyman, J. Ross, was "only" suspended for 3 monhts. But since they believe Ross should have been sacked, surely they must also agree that dropping Thatcher was also the right move? Or do they? :rolleyes:
Beep boop. I'm a bot.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Probably a bit of who she is and a bit of politically correct posturing by the BBC

    On the other hand it seems like relationships have totally broken down between her and other members of the team - in that case someone has to go and she's the obvious person.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have mixed feelings about this. Carol was talking off-camera and we don't know whether the tone of her remark was 'racist' as such. I suspect not. She is smart enough to know that any racist intent would be unacceptable. When Jo Wilfried Tsonga wore his hair long, it did look quite unruly.

    But she was on her employer's property when she made the comment and surrounded by work colleagues, so it was a poor judgement on her part, especially with all the legislation in place to protect people against such language.

    So maybe, yes, it's right she leave The One Show (but not the BBC) because Adrian Chiles was one of those her objected to her comment, and it is his show after all, which could lead to an uncomfortable working relationship.

    But it's not the same as the Ross event whereby his comments were broadcast to all to hear, and deliberately so.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    But it's not the same as the Ross event whereby his comments were broadcast to all to hear, and deliberately so.
    Well, to be fair, that the Ross' comments were broadcast is a failing of the editors, not of Ross & Brand themselves.

    It should also be noted that Ross & Brand's comments were not of a racist nature, and that about 99.99% of all complaints the BBC received were from Daily Mail and S*n readers urged on by the rags, rather than by listeners genuinely offended by what they heard.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Well, to be fair, that the Ross' comments were broadcast is a failing of the editors, not of Ross & Brand themselves.

    It should also be noted that Ross & Brand's comments were not of a racist nature, and that about 99.99% of all complaints the BBC received were from Daily Mail and S*n readers urged on by the rags, rather than by listeners genuinely offended by what they heard.

    This is true and I didn't think Ross should have ever been threatened over the sack because of it. But likewise, Carol's comment weren't even recorded. It should never have been made into a story like this. But now that it's out, I think that it is right that she leaves The One Show.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why hasn't the BBC apologised for allowing a private conversation to be leaked to the media? It's them who need to be showing remorse, not Carol Thatcher for a questionable remark.

    I wonder who the grass was in this story? Pravda refuse to name the informant in question. I wonder why...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Why hasn't the BBC apologised for allowing a private conversation to be leaked to the media? It's them who need to be showing remorse, not Carol Thatcher for a questionable remark.

    I wonder who the grass was in this story? Pravda refuse to name the informant in question. I wonder why...
    A public figure made a highly questionable, possibly racist remark in a studio full of journos. The host of the programme took offence and said he didn't want her back. That is news.

    Why should it matter how it was leaked anyway? Have you got nothing to say about the remark itself?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    A public figure made a highly questionable, possibly racist remark in a studio full of journos. The host of the programme took offence and said he didn't want her back. That is news.

    Why should it matter how it was leaked anyway? Have you got nothing to say about the remark itself?

    Only because of who her Mom is
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Why should it matter how it was leaked anyway? Have you got nothing to say about the remark itself?
    Not especially, no. Golliwogs weren't considered racist until the late 1980s or so. They used to be on those Robinson's jam jars. I was only a toddler at the time, but even I remember seeing them! And I didn't grow up to be a racist bastard... (though certain elements on P&D would disagree)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On a similar note...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7873624.stm

    I can't see the mail complaining about Clarkson saying this either. He's "one of them" after all. When Clarkson has used 'Scottish' or 'Welsh' in the past he used it to belitte people from those countries.

    I do find Clarkson funny on Top Gear, but he's become a parody of himself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Said comment, refused to apologise publically, got sacked. BBC are right in this case.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,283 Skive's The Limit
    Renzo wrote: »
    I do find Clarkson funny on Top Gear, but he's become a parody of himself.

    Of course he has, he means to.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Not especially, no. Golliwogs weren't considered racist until the late 1980s or so. They used to be on those Robinson's jam jars. I was only a toddler at the time, but even I remember seeing them! And I didn't grow up to be a racist bastard... (though certain elements on P&D would disagree)
    It is considered racist now, and there is no way whatsoever that anyone who resides on this planet would be unaware of that.

    So yes, there is a very good chance she's a racist, or at the very least fucking arrogant and unpleasant idiot who couldn't even bring herself to apologise. Good riddance.

    But let the conspiraloon nutjobs speculate about 'leftist BBC' extracting revenge on Saint Maggie, if that's what floats their boat.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    So yes, there is a very good chance she's a racist, or at the very least fucking arrogant and unpleasant idiot who couldn't even bring herself to apologise. Good riddance. But let the conspiraloon nutjobs speculate about 'leftist BBC' extracting revenge on Saint Maggie, if that's what floats their boat.
    If the Beeb wanted her to make an apology about this, they should have let her decide the terms and wording of that apology. That's what happened with the Brand & Ross furore - neither of them has made a sincere apology about what they did. But of course, racism is the ultimate crime at the Pravda ivory towers - hence why Carol Thatcher is currently being portrayed by BBC News as the new Ian Huntley.
    Renzo wrote: »
    Deserves its own thread, methinks...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why is it that the right who were completely outraged by Ross and Brand seem to think this is acceptable?

    cf: Nigel Farage on Question Time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    piccolo wrote: »
    Why is it that the right who were completely outraged by Ross and Brand seem to think this is acceptable?

    cf: Nigel Farage on Question Time.
    Cos' the Right look after their own, no matter how unacceptable some of their actions might be.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Was it the right who were outraged by Ross and Brand, or just people who don't like people humiliating a young woman on the radio?

    If that's being right-wing I'm so glad I am...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Only 17 posts? The BBC's Point Of View board has got you beat on this. Over 2000 posts... (some repetition and deviation, but very little hesitation).

    'Fucking arrogant and unpleasant idiot' sounds about right, but I hadn't considered until now that Carol Thatcher may have been deliberately trying to needle Chiles and Brand with language she thought was near the knuckle but not quite actionable (the way trolls do on message boards), and got a nasty shock. As with trolls again, sometimes the offender has technically stayed within the rules, but a point comes when enough is enough. Thatcher may have just worn out her welcome after a long period of tension between her and the other programme makers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Was it the right who were outraged by Ross and Brand, or just people who don't like people humiliating a young woman on the radio?
    Given that immense majority of complaints only started after the agenda-driven S*n and Daily Wail created a shit-storm out of nothing and kept it going for weeks, and all but urged their readers to lodge complaints (most of whom, of course, hadn't even listened to the programme), I'd say it was mostly right wingers who complained, yes.

    And I suspect they did not so because of concerns for the girl or her grandfather.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Uncle Joe wrote: »
    sometimes the offender has technically stayed within the rules

    The court is in session.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Given that immense majority of complaints only started after the agenda-driven S*n and Daily Wail created a shit-storm out of nothing and kept it going for weeks, and all but urged their readers to lodge complaints (most of whom, of course, hadn't even listened to the programme), I'd say it was mostly right wingers who complained, yes.

    And I suspect they did not so because of concerns for the girl or her grandfather.

    And? I imagine the people who complained did so because they don't think multi-millionaire's should get away with ripping to shreds innocents for a laugh.

    Given that Thatcher's comment was in front of a dozen people and that Clarkson's is no worse than has been said about dozens of politicians, I would have said the deliberate humiliation of a young woman in public was much, much worse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think racism is less serious than tasteless and rude pranks myself.

    And let's not forget that Clarkson has, on more occasions than you could count without the aid of a calculator, insulted people of many trades, groups and nationalities. Repeatedly. In print and on TV. Yet nobody on the Right ever complains about it. Indeed the Scum, who loves Clarkson very much, actually devoted its front page to him on Saturday and gave him a platform to actually defend his comments.

    As a man married to an American lady, I am sure you will agree that a man that has insulted all Americans repeatedly and called them fat and stupid on every other episode of Top Gear should have been suspended if not given the boot by the BBC about a hundred thousand times sooner than any action taken against Ross and Brand. Though you won't hear the likes of the Mail or the S*n complain about such blatant bigotry/racism when it comes from Clarkson's mouth.

    As I said, the Right does look after its own...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I don't think racism is less serious than tasteless and rude pranks myself.

    And let's not forget that Clarkson has, on more occasions than you could count without the aid of a calculator, insulted people of many trades, groups and nationalities. Repeatedly. In print and on TV. Yet nobody on the Right ever complains about it. Indeed the Scum, who loves Clarkson very much, actually devoted its front page to him on Saturday and gave him a platform to actually defend his comments.

    As a man married to an American lady, I am sure you will agree that a man that has insulted all Americans repeatedly and called them fat and stupid on every other episode of Top Gear should have been suspended if not given the boot by the BBC about a hundred thousand times sooner than any action taken against Ross and Brand. Though you won't hear the likes of the Mail or the S*n complain about such blatant bigotry/racism when it comes from Clarkson's mouth.

    As I said, the Right does look after its own...

    Nope I wouldn't. I admit I enjoy pricking the sanctimony of people who complain not to be racist and then launch into an anti-American spiel and anyone who personally insults my wife had better have good running shoes. But if we got rid of every comedian who made jokes about Americans being fat and stupid we'd soon have only repeats of Charlie Chaplin

    But again I find the personal humiliation of someone (bullying if you will) much worse than a comment in private. if Thatcher said it live on TV she should have gone and I have mixed feelings about whether she should go for saying it in private (probably yes, because relations have broken down), however none of this means that I think Ross and Brand were right or treated harshly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe they weren't treated harshly, but in my opinion anyone who takes such offence at an abusive phone call (and let's face it, the Scum and the Mail made Ross and Brand sound worse than the hybrid clone of Adolph Hitler and Gary Glitter) and demand the perpetrators be sacked must also demand that a man who continues to describe Germans as Nazis, Americans as fat and stupid, lorry drivers as prostitute murderers as well as insulting those who are poor (how very clever), homosexuals and just about every other social group and nationality around, must also be sacked.

    The fact that they don't even have a single word condemnation to say shows them like the hypocrite scumbags they are.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nope I wouldn't. I admit I enjoy pricking the sanctimony of people who complain not to be racist and then launch into an anti-American spiel and anyone who personally insults my wife had better have good running shoes. But if we got rid of every comedian who made jokes about Americans being fat and stupid we'd soon have only repeats of Charlie Chaplin.

    Although I am inclined to agree there is a difference between anti-US comments and racism. Its the power relationship between the two, we are obviously less powerful than the US so the negative comments dont have as much power as racist comments have because they are directed at a less powerful minority.

    As to this case, its somewhat difficult to judge because we dont know the context or the full extent of the comment. But her refusal to even say sorry for causing offence is the issue, she may not have meant any but her inability to understand that the term might cause offence speaks volumes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Although I am inclined to agree there is a difference between anti-US comments and racism. Its the power relationship between the two, we are obviously less powerful than the US so the negative comments dont have as much power as racist comments have because they are directed at a less powerful minority.

    Call it Xenophobia then...

    ETA and the power relationship thing is bollocks if I may say so, because whilst it may be true on strategic level, it isn't true on an individual. Racism is racism and to try and dress it up as power dynamics is an excuse to allow people to perputate the view that 'they' are racist, 'I' am not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    As I said, the Right does look after its own...
    It's only what the Left has been doing for God knows how many years, aligning themselves with terrorists and brutal dictators. In the scheme of things, Clarkson's a saint.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    It's only what the Left has been doing for God knows how many years, aligning themselves with terrorists and brutal dictators. In the scheme of things, Clarkson's a saint.
    I was talking- as you must know- about low level issues such as low-level politicians and celebrities. Everyone is a saint compared with terrorists and dictators, including Ross and Brand. Point is, by any measure possible Clarkson must be as worthy of suspension and/or sacking as Ross and Brand. For the record, I don't think any of them should be, but I do find it quite unbelievable than the oh-so-moralistic tabloids demand the head of the latter while ignoring the former.

    Incidentally, you might find that the Right has had a far more illustrious and busy history of aligning themselves with terrorists and brutal dictators than the Left has- in the West at least.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    For the record, I don't think any of them should be, but I do find it quite unbelievable than the oh-so-moralistic tabloids demand the head of the latter [Ross & Brand] while ignoring the former. [Clarkson]
    Perhaps Mr Clarkson would like to try calling an elderly man and boasting he'd shagged his granddaughter and "had her on a swing"? Your wish might come true. :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Call it Xenophobia then...

    ETA and the power relationship thing is bollocks if I may say so, because whilst it may be true on strategic level, it isn't true on an individual. Racism is racism and to try and dress it up as power dynamics is an excuse to allow people to perputate the view that 'they' are racist, 'I' am not.

    I can see your point, I was more referring to the general comments about the US as a country rather than ones directed at an individual. But they certainly can be as hurtful.

    Whether we will ever get over xenophobia is to be seen, we've been rude about the French for a good few hundred years and it doesnt show any signs of stopping. The 'fear of the other' instinct does seem to be quite ingrained in people, at one time it was probably a good survival mechanism.
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