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Baby P

You almost certainly know which story I'm referring to in that title. It's the extremely disturbing case where that baby was subjected to horrific levels of brutality in its short 17-month life. The details are almost too awful to read. Up until now, Haringey Council has practically absolved itself of any responsibility for the death. The line from Sharon Shoesmith, the Director of Children's Services fot that council is effectively "Move along folks, nothing to see here.". Why is this woman still in her job? Her organisation has failed to protect this baby, with disastrous consequences. Had she any honour whatsoever, she would have already resigned. Shame on you.

So what do we get from the government? Earlier today, Ed Balls was wheeled out to the media to tell lies about how the latest review of children's welfare services will change things. Click here if you want the details on that. Isn't that what they said after Victoria Climbie died after the very same council failed dismally back in 2000? Have they honestly learnt nothing? I mean, some of the failures in this case truly defy belief. We had a doctor who somehow failed to spot that the baby had a broken back, for crying out loud! How the hell do you miss something like that? Here's hoping that doctor is promptly struck off by the General Medical Council.

I've come to believe increasingly that the only way things will change in social services is if people are held criminally accountable when they fail in this way. Drastic, maybe. But consider this. If I were an air traffic controller, and I made a huge mistake resulting in the death of hundreds of people, I would most likely end up being prosecuted for manslaughter and end up doing a very long spell in prison. If I went out driving tonight and killed a person thanks to negligence at the wheel, I would be tried in court for manslaughter and would almost certainly face prison. So why aren't the senior management of Haringey Council's social services department, such as Sharon Shoesmith going to face the same treatment?

I have an awful feeling that Baby P will not be the last to die in this brutal way. What are your thoughts on all this?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I skipped right past this part of the newspaper today because it was so disgusting.

    However I did see that the nurse at the hospital failed to examine properly and see the horror he was put through.

    VERDICT

    totally disgusitng, hang draw and quarter the parents.

    the nurse should never be allowed to practice again and sent back to her country of origin.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What has happened to baby P is horrific and shocking and yes it shouldn't really shouldn't happen but have you ever considered how short staffed, stretched to the limit this service is?
    I know it can't be used as an excuse but in reality it is probably the case.
    I know where I am the social services etc are under staffed and stretched to their limit, they rely on bank/angency staff who may work a few shifts at a time then go, then people wonder why communication is so poor.
    I know I'll probably get shot down for saying it but thats my opinion and it's from someone who has to work with social service workers ect day to day while at the hospital.

    How can things be changed if they are not recieveing money to cover the staffing numbers that are despretly needed, it can't happen and unfortunatly things slip through the net and, like this, have horrific consequences (sp?!) :(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Lucid-Life wrote: »
    I skipped right past this part of the newspaper today because it was so disgusting.

    However I did see that the nurse at the hospital failed to examine properly and see the horror he was put through.

    VERDICT

    totally disgusitng, hang draw and quarter the parents.

    the nurse should never be allowed to practice again and sent back to her country of origin.


    I heard on the radio that it was a Dr who failed to pick up on the fact that the baby was suffering from spinal damage. Also the mother tried her hardest to cover up any signs of abuse by smearing the baby with chocolate.

    Believe it or not it is hard to report abuse, you might think you would not think twice but in reality it is not always like that. A nurse at the trust I work at reported what she thought was child abuse, social services were called in and procedures were followed. It turned out the mother was not abusing the child and was so ashamed killed herself, leaving the child motherless. The nurse has never practiced since and feels she is living with this guilt. It's hard to make that decision.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Lucid-Life wrote: »
    the nurse should never be allowed to practice again and sent back to her country of origin.
    My understanding is that the doctor in question was originally from Saudi Arabia. I don't really see how her country of origin is relevant here. The General Medical Council are doing their own investigation into her own conduct at the moment. As an organisation, they're usually very good at dealing with these matters. She'll almost certainly be struck off.

    As for the mother and the stepfather, being beaten to death by a lynch mob would be too good for them. What kind of people could seriously treat a baby like a dog. How sick do you have to be to rip out a baby's fingernails and toenails? I hope they all receive long sentences in prison. If I find out next year that the two men were used as punching bags by other criminals inside already, (remember that paedophiles and child killers are regarded as the lowest of the low by prisoners) I will shed no tears for them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    As for the mother and the stepfather, being beaten to death by a lynch mob would be too good for them. What kind of people could seriously treat a baby like a dog. How sick do you have to be to rip out a baby's fingernails and toenails? I hope they all receive long sentences in prison. If I find out next year that the two men were used as punching bags by other criminals inside already, (remember that paedophiles and child killers are regarded as the lowest of the low by prisoners) I will shed no tears for them.

    Obviously people with severe mental disorders. The father didn't even know how to read iirc.

    People like these should be screened and tested before they're allowed to keep a baby. The fact that social services had checked the house on numerous occassions and found "nothing" wrong makes it all the more depressing.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »

    People like these should be screened and tested before they're allowed to keep a baby.


    You have to be screened to have a dog by the RSPCA but anyone can have kids :rolleyes: it's bad :(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    @ Piecesofme: I'm well-aware of problems within social services. My mum has told me quite a lot about this. She doesn't work for social services herself, but comes in contact with them quite often in her job. She's worried sick that people are just going to go about blaming social workers who are desperately trying to do their best in difficult circumstances. I'm acutely aware that many social services departments have considerable difficulty with recruitment and retention. That is certainly one of the long-term issues which must be addressed, but invariably won't. It wasn't when Victoria Climbie was found dead, why do politicians expect us to believe it will somehow be different this time?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry I assumed that, I didn't mean to but like you mentioned that's the first place where everyone points the finger!
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    littlemissylittlemissy Posts: 9,972 Supreme Poster
    The problem with social services is that they are understaffed and overworked.

    I have come across social services in the education settings, in situations that are not pleasant, and the social workers have no time to actually do their job due to the sheer amount of paperwork and unachievable targets that have been set at local authority and government level. And, to top that off, funding has meant that the demand for social workers is high and the number of available social workers are low. I'm not saying that all social workers are angels. Far from it. But I do think that it is unfair to tarnish all social workers as being inept at their job. I've come across some who are simply superb. And it isn't a job that I could do.

    Now, I am not condoning what happened to Baby P. It is a truly horrific case and somebody needs to be accountable. But since the Victoria Climbie tragedy there have been a lot of changes for the better and slowly things *are* improving. The Every Child Matters document is well used, well received and is making a difference to many children's lives. However, when there is such a reluctance to remove extremely vulnerable children from their parents as we have here, there will always be cases that 'fall through the system' so to speak. Which is tragic.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What sad case. Safe guarding specialism in nursing is a strong interest of mine in the future so this story was a real eye opener!
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    piecesofme wrote: »
    You have to be screened to have a dog by the RSPCA but anyone can have kids :rolleyes: it's bad :(

    And the RSPCA are cunts who often make innocent animal owners go through hell.
    I wouldn't want that level of intrusion.

    But something needs changing here, this should have been avoided.
    This case seems to have come about through as a result of several very stupid individuals. Why are people as incompetant as that employed by such important services?
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ok, seeing as i have been in care i think i have a pretty indepth knowledge of how social services work...

    Most social workers are scared of doing anything incase its the wrong decision and they loose their job over it. Yes i completely agree, that that mother should have been picked up when she had post natal depression and very closely monitored, plus i also think that he doctor must have been blind not to see a broken back and ribs and thus should be stricken off for good.

    Yes, most social workers i have come into contact with are completely useless, but this is often due to their work load or their attitude rather than anything else.

    Every child matters doesn't go far enough, they need to have more close working with vunerable parents, a friend of mine was cabable of looking after her son, but because they put her in a totally inapropriate foster home with him, she ran away with him, and thus had him taken away. She should have been able to keep him in a specialist unit.

    Personally, i think all of the child protection laws and systems are out dated. most were put in place in the 80's and society as a whole has changed since and thus these laws need to change. Even the leaving care act, which was last reviewed 10 years ago, need deperately to be changed as its leaving lots of young people who have become used to living in the care system completely vunerable to so many things i.e. homelessness, drug abuse, neglect, compromising their health needs, general abuse... the list goes on...

    tbh, i'm so angry with things like this because i was put through the mill by social services, but still i was taken into care and then these kids who are so little they have no way of convaying what happening are completely left to rot. what will it take for them to change policy?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have just read the details and broke down in tears. It broke my heart. I have a son myself and would never dream in a million years of harming or letting anybody else harm him. There is some sick bastard's in this world and they should never be allowed kid's. What is the deal with not naming the boyfriend??? i think he should be named.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    possibly in the middle of being charged, or sentenced with another crime?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    possibly in the middle of being charged, or sentenced with another crime?
    I think that's the case.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    possibly in the middle of being charged, or sentenced with another crime?


    Even if this is the case witht he serverity of this case i still think he should be named
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think he should have his eyes gouged out
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is the deal with not naming the boyfriend??? i think he should be named.
    The legal reason for not reporting the names of the mother and boyfriend is that they might be facing other charges. If their names were to be revealed to the public at this stage, they could be prejudiced. In truth of course, the media will already have their names - it's just they are banned from publishing them at this stage by law.

    What does everyone think of Gordon Brown's reaction to all this? In the House of Commons today, Macavity accused David Cameron of having a "party political" reason for raising this issue. What a despicable cunt you really are, Macavity.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think he should have his eyes gouged out


    Think they should all be tortured
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Think they should all be tortured

    So it would be ok if we did it to the parents but its completely unacceptable for them to do it to the kid? That sends out a somewhat confused message doesnt it? Torture is wrong regardless of the reasons.

    As for Social Services in general, given the state of the care system is it any wonder that social workers do everything they can to keep the family together. They know full well what life chance kids in care have. Which of course isnt to excuse this case.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i jut typed a long reply and pressed something and it dissapeared.


    Its not ok to torture people no, but on a scale of badness, its much much less bad to give some fucking evil sadist a taste of their own medicine than it is for said sadist to torture and kill a small child. I really fucking hope he gets whats coming to him and the mother too who enabled it.

    That poor baby was nearly the same age as my Félix :crying:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and social services are supposed to do what they can to keep families together, but far too often they remove children for crap reasons - on a what if basis, yet when there is actual evidence of abuse, like in this case, its overlooked and dismissed.
    I mean wtf is going on?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    SIXTY fucking visits social services paid to that family, and still they leave him with them to be tortured to death
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ... and the woman had another baby whilst on remand, which they've taken off her... and she's launched a legal challenge to gain access to the baby.

    WTF?!

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1925012.ece

    She shouldn't be responsible for any living thing, ever again.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hopefully be reading about how the boyfriend got sliced n diced inside in a few months :mad:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    z- wrote: »
    hopefully be reading about how the boyfriend got sliced n diced inside in a few months :mad:

    I have to say I won't be upset if that happens.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is so upsetting. I can't understand how this can happen.
    I work with children and the Child Protection guidelines etc are so ridiculously anal that I can't believe so many professionals let this slip.
    As I was reading through the Times article, so many of the typical 'alarm bells' were triggered. I would never have let that child go back to its mother after witnessing some of these things. SO ridiculous.

    However, a reason I hate journalism:
    "The overweight woman, who had never had a full-time job"
    There's just no need to mention it. It suggests that just because she's fat and hasn't had a job that she must be a dick. This statement is just so up itself.
    (NB: I'm not trying to defend the mum! Just people who are overweight or jobless!)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    What does everyone think of Gordon Brown's reaction to all this? In the House of Commons today, Macavity accused David Cameron of having a "party political" reason for raising this issue. What a despicable cunt you really are, Macavity.
    Admittedly I only heard what the news showed, but the quote shown had Cameron using this case to have a go not just at Haringey Social Services, but to the entire Social Services of Britain at a whole.

    Since this case is luckily the exception not the norm, Cameron's comments were oportunistic and nauseating in the extreme. He's right to raise the issue of this case, but very wrong to try to make political gain out of it by attempting to smear the nation-wide system. Unless the comment was taken out of context.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Admittedly I only heard what the news showed, but the quote shown had Cameron using this case to have a go not just at Haringey Social Services, but to the entire Social Services of Britain at a whole.

    Since this case is luckily the exception not the norm, Cameron's comments were oportunistic and nauseating in the extreme. He's right to raise the issue of this case, but very wrong to try to make political gain out of it by attempting to smear the nation-wide system. Unless the comment was taken out of context.

    I don't think he said anything of the sort, from Hansard
    Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): Only this Prime Minister could be quite so smug on the day that 140,000 people have lost their jobs. Before turning to the economy, however, I want to ask the Prime Minister about the tragic death of Baby P. That happened in the same children’s services department that was responsible for Victoria Climbié. Yet again, nobody is taking responsibility and nobody has resigned. Does the Prime Minister agree that the Haringey inquiry is completely unacceptable? It is being led by Mrs. Shoesmith, who is the council’s own director of children’s services. Does the Prime Minister agree that she cannot possibly investigate the failure of her own department?

    PM answers
    Mr. Cameron: Let me ask the Prime Minister again about the local review. Sharon Shoesmith, who is carrying it out, said— [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members should worry about this matter, as this is a local authority that has completely failed. She said that her service had “worked effectively”. Now, the Prime Minister’s own Children’s Minister said very recently:

    “Many areas set up their safeguarding board with the local director of children’s services as chair. That’s something that frankly does concern me.”

    So let me ask again: is it not unacceptable that the person who runs the children’s services department is responsible for looking into what her own department did?


    PM answers
    Mr. Cameron: I asked a straightforward question and have got absolutely no answer. Just on the most basic— [ Interruption. ]

    Speaker calls the house to order
    Mr. Cameron: I tell you what is shameful, and that is trying to shout down someone who is asking reasonable questions about something that has gone wrong. Let us be honest: this is a story about a 17-year-old girl who had no idea how to bring up a child. It is about a boyfriend who could not read but who could beat a child, and it is about a social services department that gets £100 million a year and cannot look after children. That is what this is about.

    In the case of failing schools, we take them over. In this department in Haringey, one in four positions for social workers is completely vacant. It does nothing to help struggling local schools that are failing, and another child has been beaten to death. I do not expect an answer now, because we never get one, but will the Prime Minister at least consider whether the time has come to take over this failing department and put someone in charge who can run it properly for our children?

    PM answers
    Mr. Cameron: I think that what the Prime Minister said just now was, frankly, cheap. I am not making— [Interruption.] I asked some perfectly reasonable questions about a process that is wrong, and I would ask the Prime Minister to withdraw the attack that that was about party politics.

    PM answers
    Mr. Cameron: You accused me of party politics about this— [Interruption.] My apologies, Mr. Speaker; he accused me of— [Interruption.]

    Speaker calls the house to order again
    Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister accused me of playing party politics. I did not mention who runs this council—and I did not mention who ran it when Victoria Climbié was tragically killed—and all I am asking is that the Prime Minister withdraws his accusation that I was in any way playing party politics, and not asking a perfectly reasonable question about a tragic case. I was putting to him a point made by his own Children’s Secretary, so I ask the Prime Minister one more time: please just withdraw the accusation that I was playing party politics, because he knows I was not.

    PM answers
    Mr. Cameron: Obviously the Prime Minister does not feel able to withdraw what he said. Let me ask him one more time about the central point, which does not apply only in Haringey, but may well be a problem elsewhere, as his own Children’s Minister has said. We have a
    system that allows directors of children’s services to examine the conduct of their own department. That is wrong in every other walk of life. It must be wrong in social services, where we are dealing with the most difficult and sensitive decisions. Will he at least take away what his children’s spokesman has said, and say, “You should not investigate your own conduct”? It is simple: give a pledge.


    His quote must have been taken out of context because I can't even see it. The nearest he gets is the reasonable question over whether Councils should investigate themselves in cases of this magnitude

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm081112/debtext/81112-0002.htm#08111228000013
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Admittedly I only heard what the news showed, but the quote shown had Cameron using this case to have a go not just at Haringey Social Services, but to the entire Social Services of Britain at a whole.

    Since this case is luckily the exception not the norm, Cameron's comments were oportunistic and nauseating in the extreme. He's right to raise the issue of this case, but very wrong to try to make political gain out of it by attempting to smear the nation-wide system. Unless the comment was taken out of context.
    You've either been watching Nick Robinson's completely biased and slanted reporting on this over on Pravda News, or you've taken something very odd indeed. There's simply no other explanations for coming to that view. Let's remind ourselves this is the journalist who claimed on Wednesday that David Cameron was simply pretending to be angry. His blog have been hammered with complaints about his reporting over this. Nick Robinson and Macavity must be the only two people in the country who seriously believe that Call Me Dave was trying to make political gain out of this.

    I've actually been reading several Labour MPs blogs in the last day or two about this. Believe it or not, despite my visceral hatred of politicians, I do keep a very close eye on what they are saying. Like you say yourself Aladdin, keep your friends close and your enemies even closer. Not one of them is prepared to come to his defence, and many of these are politicians who do not have an axe to grind with the Prime Minister. Doesn't that speak volumes? This episode simply revealed just how emotionally deficient and tribal our Prime Minister really is. Instead of answering a simple question, he tells lies about how the Leader of the Opposition is somehow trying to make a political point. Tony Blair, for all of his faults, would never have dreamed of making such an offensive remark.

    Incidentally, does anyone believe the woman who Haringey Council wheeled out in front of the media today when she said they were "truly sorry" for Baby P's death? If they were sorry, heads would have already rolled about this.
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