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unreasonable ?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080618/video/vuk-misadventure-verdict-over-canoe-deat-49bfa63.html
Do I understand correctly that this guy is upset because he was not advised that it should be 1 adult per child ? I mean don't people have common sense ? why do people have to blame others for their own shortsightedness (if i understood rightly what he was saying)
Do I understand correctly that this guy is upset because he was not advised that it should be 1 adult per child ? I mean don't people have common sense ? why do people have to blame others for their own shortsightedness (if i understood rightly what he was saying)
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Harsh.
I do but to say that the canoe company are responsable for not saying "actually you should have only one child per adult" I mean it would be my first though if I were going on such a venture I would think first: "what if ? and what can I do now to try and safeguard against it ?" what has happened these days to looking after oneself why do we have to blame others when we don't look after our own safety. We have got to the point where one can say "I'm incompetent but its someone elses fault !"
I've lost count of the number of instances where we've sent someone off the trampolines for repeated rule-breaking. Apparently, I hadn't told the child in question that he wasn't allowed to do somersaults on them. The parent in question demanded to see my manager to "report you" or some other shit. In public, the manager stood up for me. In private, I was given a good talking to about this. We have to go through all the rules for two reasons. One, it prevents people from whinging endlessly about it. Two, if they have an accident because they broke the rules, it means that they've theoretically got no one but themselves to blame. And guess what? If someone has an accident on the trampolines whilst I'm watching over them, I could be held personally responsible and taken to court! This is why I flatly refuse to do it nowadays.
Yes, you're right - personal responsibility is something that we need to bring back into society, and lots of it. But none of this changes the fact that this was a terrible accident, and that this man is now grieving for his lost child.
They were given no form of training (basic) or anything like that.
What you've said is really harsh.
Not everyone thinks that far ahead.
But I've been before with the army and it definately wasn't one adult per child, more like two adults per 10 kids. We were a bit older, around 12/13 though.
From what I've read on other coverage though even the guy who loaned them the canoes said he wasn't aware of the risks and had enjoyed canoeing so much on holiday he wanted to share it with other people so set up canoe hire. He offered safety gear etc but no advice as he was perfectly amatuer. Not really his fault, he even said he thinks there should be compulsory licencing.
once upon a time someone that didn't think that far ahead in fact further was a dead man, "that far ahead" ? sorry how far was that your planning on taking your kids on a canoe trip and you don't think first of what it may entale in case people that lead sheltered lives from the reality of the world out there don't know you have to know how to look after yourself, yes its a very sad accident but to say its the fault of the renters and that they get through a "loop hole in the law" is going a bit far, its as good as saying that if I jump straigh in front of a car and he is unable to stop its his fault.
I dable in electronics occasionally I have exsposed live terminal or wires sometimes inevitable sometimes I don't want to take the time to seal them up but I don't take the risks lightly I make sure i know exactly where danger is and where i must not touch (my house has no RCD) if there were to be children around i would not do it if there was anyone else i would make sure that they are well aware of wehat I'm doing and to stand clear. Ahem I'm still alive
why the company ? its not like he was given a faulty canoe or equipment
there you go some twit wants to have fun do things that he probably knows are against comon sense but if he gets injured because of his own stupidity some one else has to take the can
The company that hired out the boats should definitely have made sure that the adult at least was a competent kayaker, and that all three of them could swim well. He should have provided buoyancy aids and at least one throwline, and given them basic safety training.
He should definitely have been aware of the river conditions. The river Wye can be a lovely calm river but it can also flood really quickly and become dangerous just as quickly.
He should have ensured that they were wearing appropriate clothing.
I do not think that he should have been able, as the BBC article here says, just buy two canoes and rent them out. In that respect, the "industry" (it's hardly an industry btw) is unregulated.
SO MANY accidents happen in canoeing because people think "ooh I know, I'll buy a canoe or kayak on ebay for the summer, that'll be fun" but they have NO idea about safety or ability, or the river they're paddling or anything like that. Paddling with a canoe club is safe, and I can't think of any accidents at all that have happened and personally me and my family are very in the loop with canoeing and I think they'd hear about it if there had been.
I'm getting off track here.
When they were on the water, the adult was responsible for those two children. The canoe hire man should not have hired those canoes out, he didn't do all the things you must do and ultimately I think he is responsible for this happening. People go paddling on the river Wye all the time, my club goes on a camping trip there every year, taking their own boats and of course instructors. The adults are responsible for judging the state of the river, setting the course and making sure everyone has the correct safety equipment and is competent to paddle. These adults are all coaches and are qualified up to at least Level 3 and have done canoe safety courses. The hire company and the father are BOTH responsible in this case but I can see why the father would want to shift as much blame as possible onto the company.
I think that there should be some kind of licence to be able to hire out canoes but at the same time the media seems to be seizing on this as if EVERYWHERE is like this, when it actually isn't. The people who hired out these canoes seem to be two inexperienced guys, who shouldn't have been allowed to do this. Canoe clubs are totally different and are very responsible and affilliated with the British Canoe Union. I think there is going to be some kind of knee jerk reaction to this though and it will probably make things difficult for clubs unnecessarily as a result.
2. The canoe hire company staff were inexperienced, did not provide proper training and did not provide proper safety equipment. They are culpable for the child's death. He hired the boat in good faith and the hire company should have made sure that he was safe to use the kayak and was skilled in using the safety equipment. They are culpable for what happened because of their negligence. And it is negligence, I presume you know what that word means, Simon?
Quite so.
Canoeing IS dangerous. Fact. But people don't think this, and the companies, let us be honest, don't care that much. So long as they don't expressly do anything wrong, they won't get prosecuted. They just assume people know what they are doing and will be safe.
This man went through a horrible ordeal. He lost a child. And there is nothing that could have prevented it, apart from not doing the canoe trip in the first place.
you hit the nail on the head, its at the point of saying: "shall I go canoeing ?" that I'd say: "is it a good idea can I handle any problems that may arise ?"
I'd like to see what the guy would be saying if he went and bought his own canoe to have an accident in who would he blame then ?
sorry
1. Kermit if I were in this mans boat I'd be blaming myself ! yes its sad that he will have to live with this but its part of life.
by the way I have a job and they are damn pleased with me and even find me funny at times and we have a good laugh ! but apart from that I'm known at work for being hard working and thorough
2. I'm sorry if i take responsability for my actions and try to plan for obvious accidents without blaming others perhaps its too much to exspect similar of others. I can go buy a canoe if i like and go canoeing without training or anything thats my problem what this guy did amounts to about that he could have chosen an all the bells and wistles company if he had wanted.
That's different. The company he was with has a duty of care.
I've gotta say, if I was doing something for the first time, I would do the same.
There are no laws about buying a boat with no experience, if he had bought a boat and this had happened then he would have been responsible and it would have been put down to inexperience and foolishness. The company were negligent in this case but that doesn't mean that all hire companies are. I'm a bit concerned about any knee jerk laws or rules about this really.
I had a rubber dingy in Italy and went to the beach with it and friends, my friend could not swim nor could his children. When they were on board I would not go further out than chest deep and my friend also asked me not to (he was thinking responsably of his children) the only times i went farther out I took only one child at a time I kew that in the hugely unlikely even of trouble I could depend on both children cooperating with me and been physically able myself to get them back to shore. they are aged 10 and 12
It's very easy to get into difficulties when canoeing, especially if you don't know the river and you don't know how to paddle. It's not necesarily the dad's fault for them getting into difficulties. The Wye is difficult to paddle on against the flow as well, but how would he have known this until he was on it? The company didn't tell him. I need another word for that actually cos it was hardly a company, two guys hiring out two canoes.
You can't possibly have known any such thing!
You were irresponsible.
erm like I said if i went further it was one person at a time rarely did it though. the idea being if the boat went flat they could touch bottom, yes you can drown in 1 inch of water if unconcious and face down
I'm sure he is blaming himself. But he is also asking why a hire company (who are in a position of responsibility here) allowed him on to a dangerous river without any training or safety equipment. And without any warning about the dangers of the stretch of river and the high water.
Given that there had been warnings given to locals about the river, the father should not have been allowed out onto the river without a warning. The Wye is a dangerous river, as many experienced canoeists have shown. The hire company have a responsibility to ensure that people using their canoes are capable and that they are warned about dangers in the river.
As for your last comment, much as you are an odious little fuck without two brain cells to rub together, I hope it never happens to you. It might give you a bit of empathy if it did though, something you clearly need.
The fact that you took an inflatable onto the sea with a child who could not swim goes to show what a stupid fuck you really are. Not only can you drown in chest height water (which is a good four foot deep), how on earth would you have been able to fight against the tide if things went wrong?