If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options
Tony Blair's plane nearly shot down by Israeli warplanes
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/23/israelandthepalestinians.tonyblair
That would have been funny at so many levels (other than the families of the pilots)...
Now that would have been one Israeli ill-thought act of aggression I for once would have been fully supportive of
That would have been funny at so many levels (other than the families of the pilots)...
Now that would have been one Israeli ill-thought act of aggression I for once would have been fully supportive of
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
0
Comments
I dont see whats so funny, that would have only lead to use bombing the shit out of Israeli
about time...
Sorry, that was a poor comment. But for anyone who hates US militaristic neo-imperialism, well Israel is their counterpart / puppet in the middle east.
I would not be surprised to see they had killed more innocent people, after all it's victor's justice - anyone they kill they can claim is a terrorist. The IDF and the zealots are Israel's shame.
Hamas have been firing qassam rockets at them, surely that comforts a hater of 'US militaristic neo-imperialism' like you.
Isreal doesn't claim that everyone it kills is a terrorist, it does accept that sometimes innocent civilians are killed, usually due to the fact that the terrorists intentionally use them as human shields, and intentionally base themselves in the midst of civilians. It doesn't intentionally aim to kill innocent civilians.
There is a whole long list of wrongs on both sides. They both use collective punishment, they both you terrorism, they both kill innocent people...
I just hope that at some point they will realise its not worth continuing to kill each other, but then they havent noticed that for the last 4000 years so I doubt they will anytime soon.
They're not morally equivalent. Israel are the ones trying to defend themselves from attack, they're not the aggressors.
And the others are doing exactly the same. Sorry but its children fighting over a sandbox but with nasty weapons. It boils down to the fact that they cant live in the same street as someone different, so they'll keep fighting till either they're all dead or they finally learn to live next door to each other.
Defending themselves? Do me a favour...
Defending themselves succesfully it looks like.
Given that many of their neighbours want their complete destruction it hardly seems unfair of Israel to want to do something about that.
Yes, atrocities have been committed on both sides. But it is only one side that is oppressing the other and illegally occupying their land.
Israel certainly has a long list of abuses, but its not the worst in the World, the Uzbeks are certainly up there, but then its not a contest.
As for only one side oppressing the other, frankly I'd find thousands of little indescriminate rockets fairly oppressing.
There are simple things both sides could do to calm the situation, but they dont want to, they havent tired of murder yet.
So they go and nick the land of the only neighbours who actually pose no military threat to them.
Please. Regardless of the wars and hatred between the different nations in the area, let's not be under any illusions about the nature and reasons behind Israel's never-ending (and in fact, expanding) land grabs.
Israel already holds the unfortunate record of being home to the most rocketed city on earth. I assume that your skewered line of thought welcomes that information?
I will readily say that human life is human life, and an apology does not help to bring the dead back. But I will also claim that the apologies following wrongly-done killings are hell of a lot better than rejoicing and aiming at civilians? Though again, you probably disagree.
Israeli extremists are a stain on Israel's reputation, but to be fair I don't think Hamas, Mubarak, Ahmedinejahd, Assad and Co. etc., do much for their countries' international profile either. Yet again, might just be me
For as long as Israel refuses to even contemplate returning the land it stole, there will never be peace. Ever.
Depending on how bad Omets (sorry if I've totally spelt that wrong) court case goes the Golan Heights might be given back.
I'm willing to bet no city on Earth boasts more attacks by Apache helicopter, attacks by F-16s, illegal incursions by column of tanks, number of shells taken in over the last 40 years, or number of homes destroyed by bulldozer.
Well, maybe the West Bank.
Yes, I agree that map 4 is inaccurate as it's not party of israel. But you posted it
They gave a chunk back to Egypt in return for peace.
The fact they feel under threat (and rockets landing daily probably doesn't reduce that feeling).
The fact is that neither side are angels. But Israel by being successful is seen as the villain, whilst the Arabs because they are unsuccessful are seen as being innocents. In reality military success has nothing to do with the morality of either side.
The biggest problem lies with the West Bank. Jerusalem would have to be negotiated, and the Palestinians might have to give some ground on return of refugees- but there has to be a full and complete withdrawal from the West Bank and dismantlement of illegal settlements. Instead, Israel is to this day announcing the construction of new settlements.
Or maybe don't. To be fair there's as much point in me engaging in this discussion as there is in you engaging in it. We'll never come to an agreement on the claim of whether or not Israel is the worst country on earth. So why bother?
A chunk they had previously taken, but that is an aside point. The land that is allowing the conflict to perpetuate is the West Bank.
Palestinians and the Arabs are not angels. But it is not a 50/50 situation. Israel must stop the abominable conditions it keeps the Palestinians under, and above all it must return the West Bank in its totality. Even if there was a genuine military reason for nicking the West Bank in 67 (there wasn't but never mind) it does not exist now. Israel wants to keep the land and keep building settlements for its own expansionist beliefs, not out of necessity. There is no excuse for keeping it. They must be prepared to at least offer it in return for full and permanent peace. But they must do it because it is the right thing to do. They don't have a right to that land, morally, militarily, defensively or otherwise.
The first of the maps you posted should tell you everything you want to know.
Palestinian land, lived in by Palestinians.
Oh wait. They're brutes and savages incapable of ruling themselves, and it should be us Westerners who decide who should live in the land and own it.
At any rate the UN voted to terminate the Brit mandate. My bad. Though the Arabs were the ones to reject the 1947 partition plan, and to attack Israel because they didn't want it to exist at all. And Hamas still refuses to recognise its right to exist.
Even Hamas has said, several times now, that they would consider negotiating a peace deal with Israel and recognising its right to exist if Israel were to return the land taken in 1967. Still the Israelis refuse to talk. Their own expansionist ambitions appear to be more powerful than their desire to live in peace with its neighbours.
My earlier comment was slightly tongue in cheek (as you do on the internet) just so you know. But I honestly don't think it's by any means as aladdin says it's a 50/50 situation. There is no right side or wrong side, but the brunt of the bloodshed is suffered by the Palestinians. I believe the IDF are, similar to the paras in NI, lacking in any empathy, getting hot under the collar because they have a gun in their hands. I think this a human failing in any conflict but some people really let themselves go.
There is condemnation in the republic of congo and developing nations for how they are reckless with weapons, bombs, etc. but because of the political situation the IDF receive little international criticism (at a governmental level, anyway). Demolishing homes, killing innocents, internment etc. - it's all pretty similar to the way the British Army worked in NI until they came to their senses. And that got us far, didn't it?
The gaza strip has the lowest median age for men in the world. But you're right, there probably is no point in discussing this, but my view isn't one of prejudice against the Israeli people or anything like that, it's looking at the situation, the statistics, objectively. I know there are plenty in Israel who lobby the government to soften it's 'defence' policies, but I can only guess that there is such an intense nationalism in Israel that softening their approach is felt to be a sign of weakness.
http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp - IDF soldiers recount their own experiences serving
Interesting comment, cause if you look at the UN Human Rights Commission, Israel is the country that has by far recieved most criticism and resolutions against it. Even leading to Kofi Annan stating that the criticism Israel faces is disproportionate. This is made even more obvious when considering that countries such as China, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Zimbabwe etc. have none.
Even the most staunch criticisers of Israel who posses integrity, would clearly state that Israel through all its flaws, is not the worst country out there.
Excuse me, but its quite naive to state that you are objective. You, are as objective as I am, and everyone else is on this issue.
Regarding the IDF, it has unfortunately become a natural part of society. However as you state yourself there is open debate about the role of the army and its conduct in Israeli society - not quite the same can be said about the opportunities for open debate and criticism in the surrounding states.
I have no vested interest, I am an impartial observer living in a country with no direct links to either of the countries involved (but at the same time, very much both
There is open debate and that is a good thing, but I think if you look at the surrounding states a lot if not all of the action and extremism is reactive rather than pro active. I mean, it hit me the other week when Osama Bin Laden was saying how he would cleanse the middle east of the infidels etc. - really all of this muslim extremism vs western... exploitation (I guess you could call it that, disregard for people's rights and instead only interested in their own gain?) is centered around Israel, and since the creation of Israel. I mean NI for the UK is a conflict that goes back a couple of hundred years with attacks on both sides.
The Israel situation I think stems from when it was first set up... obviously there would have been Jewish people living there before and I have no doubt they suffered a lot of persecution from arabs - that's xenophobia for you - but it never really kicked off with calls for a jihad, cleansing, massive terrorist cells operating to destroy all the west until the state of Israel was established. (not that I'm advocating we get rid of it, this just possibly shows some of the motives behind it)
I guess you could boil it down to the Israeli proactive pre-emptive strikes (often against innocent targets) to the reactionary revenge attacks by hizbollah etc. It has escalated from that now obviously, in any conflict you get to a point where the other side just becomes the enemy and nobody remembers why it started and maybe it doesn't matter. But the IDF still has that massive weight of US defence grants giving them unparalleled capability, which it seems they exercise far too regularly with not enough regard for human life and dignity.
Final thought: consider victor's justice, whoever is dominant normally gets to tell the story they want told. I was taught throughout history the UK was very much an honorable 'save everyone' nation, WW2, WW1, boer war, all the way back to the middle ages. Considering it critically... who really kicked off WW1? Even WW2? We won both, we get to tell the story how we want to. It's no different in Israel. Do people stop to consider; 'Are we the enemy?'
As for Tony Blair's plane nearly being shot down, there's always next time. The moment that venal, grasping cunt of a man is dead, the world will be a better place.