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They occupied the land because they were under attack, and they've been under attack since then. They gave back Gaza and it didn't stop the violence. If Palestinians were really after peace based on the 1967 borders, why not say: 'you've taken the first step in giving back Gaza, good, now as a sign of good-will, we will stop attacking you and we can both move forward'.
The fact is they don't like a Jewish state existing there at all. You're having a laugh if you think Israel should enter into negotiations with people who don't recognise its right to exist; with people who are pledged, in God's name, to killing Jews whereever they find them; people whose whole existence is based around a hatred of Jews and a desire for their annihilation; people who teach their children the same vile hatred, because they've said that they would 'consider' recognising their right to exist(!) if the Israeilis do what they want. I certainly hope no Israeli leader is ever that stupid.
Israel would consider negotiating a peace deal with Hamas if they were to renounce violence and accept its right to exist. Try as I might, I simply cannot grasp how those are unreasonable conditions for people who supposedly desire peace with their neighbour.
Well if you look at the history of the state, I think it's something like 900,000 Palestinians who were forcebly removed from their homes in the early years of the Israeli state. The hatred has a basis.
Both sides are as bad as each other in that innocent civillians from both sides die in great numbers but Israel is most certainly in the wrong politically, they should give back the West Bank and Gaza and let the Palestines have some sort of self-determination.
Jesus is a Fiction character in a book, there’s just as much of a chance of Homer Simpson showing up.
There has been mass killings on both sides since the Romans tried to bring law and order to that part of the World. Israel is and probably always will be just the focus point for a very long running battle.
Ooo - let's be careful before we start talking a massive military operation intended to secure slaves, exploit resources and subjugate entire nations is considered 'bringing law and order'. The Roman's always did what they could to claim the lands they took were uncivilised or barbaric when it often really meant they didn't pay the Senate tax or wear togas.
There was plenty of law and order there long before Pompey - I very much doubt Solomon would have liked the idea the Roman's were those who brought law and order.
As an area, certainly if you take Jersualem as an example, you're talking about a city that experienced long periods of war and domination long before the fascist domination of the Imperial Eagle. Not to mention the various nations that even before the Romans managed to conquer it (the Babylonian period of control under Nebuchadnezzar and the long period of imposed Babylonian law and governorship; the Greek domination under Alexander the Great, the rebellions against the greeks) who played their part in shaping the country. But at none of those points could it really be seen as without law.
Not really certain what you mean by 'mass killings on both sides' post the Roman period - the Roman's brought less liberty than the city state that had existed 1000 years ago.
But really the idea that the sides in conflict resemble the same divide as they do today might be worth reconsidering - the complexity of ancient civilizations prior to Rome and Greece tends to be ignored in the West and I'm not convinced that the modern conflict we see today can really be considered to begin until around the 7th century.
At least I'd guess that the religious lines of the modern conflict aren't really drawn till then.
Anyway, not really meaning to pick on your post but always find it interesting the way Ancient history seems to have been boiled down to - everyone is a barbarian then the Roman's come and sort everything out.
What have the Romans done for us...;)
Are you a classicist by any chance Jim? I notice you seem well versed in this and other posts
I did think of Life of Brian whilst writing this
I am indeed one of the last of those people who did Classics, mind you only at A-level, the rest is just an interest in history and especially the way ancient history has often as much relevance as recent history once you start to look at it.
Fair enough, my historical knowledge of the period isnt great, I was just pointing out that peoples have been fighting over that patch of land for a very long time.
And in terms of mass killings the Romans were rather good at that, as were the Jews when they revolted against Roman rule.
I just think to talk about the issue as though it all started in 1948 is totally missing a huge chunk of history.
Oh undoubtedly
Oh come of it! How horridly revisionist! :yuck: There wasn't the idea of the rule of law in the places they conquered. 'Potentiora legum quam hominum imperia' (the rule of laws is more powerful than that of men). That is civilisation and freedom, and those who were conquered by Rome knew it: 'civis romanus sum'? There were new rights and duties to being a citizen, and pride too.
It's just plain absurd. The Palestine area was only ever the nation state of the Jews. The 'Palestinians' as a separate and distinct people didn't even exist until relatively recently.
As I understand it, it is still debated how much the responsibility for that falls on the Jewish leadership, and how much of it falls on the Arab leadership. But even accepting that that is the basis, it's nonsensical to expect there to be any reasonable peace settlement while such hatred exists.
It's unfair to equate trying to defend yourself from attack, and unintentionally killing innocent civilians, with intentionally and indiscriminately trying to kill as many innocent civilians as possible, out of hate.
They returned Gaza and it didn't really help. As I said, I think the problem is that the likes of Hamas don't like the idea of Jewish state existing there at all. Israel should stop building settlements though, we can probably agree on that one.
How exactly did Alexander the Great rule a vast empire without the rule of law or why was Solomon seen as the antecedent of modern law if he never imposed any laws?
I meant a well codified law, but you're right, a lack of it was probably more the case in Europe before the Romans than in the Middle East http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi
Really?
So the IDF doesn't shoot kids or use them as human shields?
Honestly even if the official mandate of the IDF is to defend Israel it does far more than that. I don't know whether it's just corruption or whatever you want to call it where people at the lower ranks are a bit evil, but there are tonnes of documented cases of abductions, assassinations, murder, demolition etc. of peaceful Palestinians. (not to mention the targeting of German nationals)
The fact that hizbollah fires rockets from caves vs. the fact that the IDF use their merkesheva tank (cant remember what its called) makes no difference.
Is it the policy of the Israeli government to shoot kids and to use them as human shields?
I think you're missing the point here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo
http://breakingthesilence.org.il
It's not about the policy, it's about what happens on the ground.
Offical Policy or not that is what happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2L0A&feature=related
Israeli-Palestinian Fatalities Since 2000 - Key Trends*
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0a2a053971ccb56885256cef0073c6d4/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument