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We do.
I shave every day, unkept facial hair isn't very attractive. And have/ would have no problem in keeping other regions tidy if my girlfriend found it more attractive.
Men and women groom themselves in different ways, I really don't see the problem.
Appearance is important. There's nothing wrong in people liking what they like.
Though I do still do the pits, they itch otherwise.
The point is we've been doing unatural things for thousands of years to change our a appearance to make us more attractive to others. Of course it's a social construct, but's it's nothing new. Men have been scraping a sharp blade over thier face for far longer than woman have been shaving.
It's not natural to get you hair cut, dye it, wear lipstick, or wear all manner of different clothing, but we do it. I don't see much wrong in it either.
I don't see how this is any different.
I agree with Katralla, I dont think most people would even notice, and anyone who had any political awareness or the intelligence id be after in a partner, it just wouldnt be enough of an issue. If i was with someone fab, but they felt so strongly as to actually be repulsed by a bit of my body hair, then THAT would make me think they were a twat tbh. Its one thing having a preference for something. Its another thing insisting on it.
It depends what is the most important thing to you, being as conventionally attractive to as many people as possible, or doing what makes you happy, or stopping doing what makes you unhappy.
I mean Kiezo, I think your personal style would weed out a hell of a lot of people who wouldnt necessarily be right for you wouldnt it? Whats the difference???
As if
If that was truly the case then men would be expected to shave too. Yes I agree it's a social norm and generally women's legs look much better shaved if the hair is coarse, however to say it's bad hygiene - or even laziness to not shave - is simply rot.
Protip: there's different social standards for men and women. If men were to leave their facial and head hair unkempt, they would be seen as dirty and lazy too.
You'd think so, but for every person who shouts abuse in the street or tries to start a fight, there's two who are openly complimentary and want to know how I've done a certain thing with my outfit. As blatantly arrogant as this sounds, I get girls coming up and using this as a reason to start talking to me, usually ones who aren't into the rock/glam/sleaze scene at all (including my current girlfriend). I somehow doubt you're going to get anyone coming up to you with the line "Oh man, nice armpit hair!" unless they're being completely sardonic.
Er, they are. Unless of course your climbing Everest or your name is Santa, but old people are allowed.
This thread (as well as every girl I've ever known or gone out with) disproves that. Girl's do let it grow out of laziness. I'm currently letting my facial hair grow, not born from some radical "Fuck you, society!" statement, but for the simply fact I can't be arsed right now. Sure, in a perfect society people wouldn't jump to these conclusions, but they do. Guys keeping their pubes shaved it also considered to be good hygiene - it stands to reason that letting it grow into Cousin IT's little brother is considered bad hygiene.
Like it or not, the majority of people are going to think that. Whether it's true or not, again, isn't the point.
Doesn't mean I'm unclean or lazy generally though.
You KNOW I mean legs and armpits. Beards suit some people and not others - in the same way some people like glam sleaze and some people don't.
ETA: I probably do agree with the lazy thing to be fair - it's the hygiene thing I take issue with.
I know quite a few, and its not out of laziness, and for the most part its never stopped them finding partners, and Kiezo, I think that your look would put a hell of a lot of people off, although im sure it attracts people too, but tbh, anyone who looked like they spent longer than me getting ready, would be a turn off for a partner, although im sure i could still appreciate it being nice looking. Id be MUCH more inclined to go for someone who had strong politcal views on equality and feminism than someone who looked like they owned shares in hair products. Who gives a fuck whether I or you am physically attractive to the maximum amount of people at the same time??
For moonrat im sure the right person for her is gonna be someone that body hair isnt even going to be an issue for, plus, it really ISNT a big decision. She could grow it, and its not like anyone has to sign a form saying theyll never shave it again if they dont like it.
I do, but I'm trying to point out there's certain things that are socially accepted for women do to, and different things that are socially accepted for men to do. Grouping men and women together in the same boat in an argument such as this doesn't add very much weight to your point, unless of course you want to completely break down the gender divide and make everyone as androgynous as possible.
I'm not saying I personally think that, I'm trying to get across what the majority of people are going to think. Although the hygiene part is more aimed at armpit hair than leg hair - people tend to think "Oh well if she hasn't bothered doing that, what else hasn't she done?"
None, although I've seen women who don't and I've heard the kind of comments people make (bearing in mind, I'm still veering more towards armpit hair than leg hair). There are absolutely no positives to not shaving armpit hair that I can think of, let alone any that would outweigh the negatives.
And therein lies the difference. The way I dress is attractive to some people and a complete turn off to others. Unshaven armpit hair is either a complete turn off or "It's ok I guess, but I prefer shaven". Noone is outwardly attracted to hairy women except maybe fetishists. You aren't going to get someone coming up and using it as an ice breaker in the same way you would with a "cool" outfit someone is wearing or whatever. Even if they did, someone telling you they like your armpit hair would be liiittle bit creepy. If you see someone dressed a certain way you might think it's cool and want to get to know the person, you'll be hard pushed to find someone who thinks this about a hairy woman.
Aye because you can't have both. As I've found out, alot of people are interested by those who dress differently and want to know what they're like as a person so use the dress thing as an excuse to come over and find out. Dressing in something other than jeans and tshirt requires a shitload of effort, so people are generally interested to find out why. Not shaving requires... not shaving, so people just shrug it off as that person being lazy or not caring about how they look.
Really, you need to stop comparing the two as they're entirely different.
EDIT: Serious question... do the dark haired girls who don't shave also leave the monobrow and moustache? Honestly not baiting here. Let's be realistic, most dark haired girls get them.
I did not say you are doing it to go willingly against society. I did however say you will do it, if you want or not. I am truly against it, that people will start to point at you, but I think we both know that it will happen.
Society does not care if you are lazy or making a important statement with it.
Good question about why women and not man? A public image of body hair to be mainly? Heck if I knew.
It's probably a egg or hen question. Was it the companies who brought out special hair removement tools for women, or was it the first woman who bought and used them?
he doesn't say you are unhygienic when you don't. He says a huge bunch of people perceive it that way, even if he, you, I and Reinhold Messner think it's complete rubbish. You are stereotypically labeled, be it true or not.
If you do not maintain bodyhair and find someone who couldn't give a rat's ass: Excellent, you got yourself someone who's absolutely not superficial, probably a keeper, but as the actual zeitgeist (i looked it up, it seems to be the same word in english and german) predetermines it as a sign of willingness to put work into ones appearence, hygiene etc. you are making it more difficult to yourself, imho.
just on a sidenote: i partially shave and trim armpit hair, because they smell ever so slighty like sweat, even after soaping and shampooing. Call me a freak of nature, if you will, but I do it for hygiene.
Beards do suit some people, but not if your somebody who doesn't liek berds. And they still require maintaining else we'd end up looking like stig of the dump.
I don't think he's saying they are unhygienic, just that a lot of people will get that impression.
How does strong preferences for shaven or trimmed girlfriends result in lack of political awareness and intelligence? How does it make them a twat? I don't understand that at all.
A lot of girls are repulsed by lots of facial hair. I don't call them stupid or twats, it's their preference.
Yeaaah I was trying to get this across earlier but nobody seemed to pick up on it. Being unshaven puts you at a disadvantage to everyone else in terms of finding a partner, and there's no possible advantage I can think of that's so great it makes up for this. Dressing a certain way makes you unattractive to one group but attractive to a whole other, being unshaven just makes you unattractive to the masses.
This is your opinion.
Right
Uhm, not it doesn't. You just have to be able to afford to dress 'different'.
Depends on the woman. I've seen some fairly masculine lesbians with moustaches. I'm a brunette and don't get it bad, so often don't bother.
Of course I remember getting changed in P.E. and seeing the girl with the hairy pits. Back then I assumed that her mum hadn't shown her how to use a razer. It never even occurred to me that she just didn't mind it.
Namaste- if you want to do it then go for it! I don't have the willpower. Stubbly legs are itchy
Yeah am gonna. I don't own many sleeveless tops and only ever wear them for raves or gay clubs.
May even put a picture on my blog.
I'm in the process of getting the dark hair on my arms zapped. It's frustrating that I have to do this in order to feel acceptable...and it hurts!! In my defence I know that I'll feel less inhibited about wearing short sleeve tops afterwards.
Both. Shaving armpit hair started in different cultures for different reasons. Alot was for beauty, alot was for hygiene. Hookers in the wicky wicky wild wild West shaved their body hair so possible clients would know they don't have body lice. Whether reasons such as this are why people still associate unshaven armpits on women is irrelevant, the point is they do. You may not, but they do.
And here was me thinking you started this thread to gain insight into other peoples' opinions. I'm not breaking this down into a "Well I think..." like alot of people in this thread are, I'm giving an opinion based on my interactions with the thousands of people I've met in my life. Plenty I know have a preference towards one style of dress, be it trendy, ned, goth, cybergoth, punk, horrorpunk, glam, sleaze, metaller, emo or indie, but I can honestly say I've never met someone from any sex or sexuality that prefers unshaven armpits on women over shaven. It's entirely possible all the lesbians I know are lying as they hang about with a bunch of gay guys (who have slagged women with armpit hair in that bitchy way they do) and want to spare themselves for a slagging, but you think at least one of them might have let it slip.
Damn right it's right. How many times have you seen a guy go for a girl across a bar who they find attractive, or a girl go for a guy who stands out? How many times have you heard girls gossip about whatever attractive qualities of that girl or guy over there, and how many times have you heard them complimentary comment on one with armpit hair? Yes, anyone worth knowing or dating should care about what's on the inside, but why subject them to stuff on that outside that statistically they're either going to not like or be completely turned off by?
Not the ones that already talk to you, no, but I can guarantee you people won't talk to you who otherwise would have. Although this is somewhat a circular and specious argument as there's no way to prove who would and wouldn't talk to you, but think about it logically and objectively.
What's considered 'normal' among people in this city is to go into a shop and spend 80 - 120 quid on jeans, 25 - 35 quid on a tshirt, then whatever on a pair of trainers. Dressing different, depending on how you do it, costs either the same or less. Then again I guess it depends what kind of different you're talking about. I'm using my own dress sense as a base which I can assure you takes way longer and requires more effort than those who dress normally.
However, I have absoloutley nothing against someone if they don't shave. It's up to yourself if you do or not and I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about someone, I wouldn't think they were unhygenic or lazy.
For example, I saw photographs of Robots In Disguise [fantastic electro/rock band] singer and guitarist Dee Plume with unshaven arm pits in a nightclub and it didn't look that bad. Having some celebrity status and dating well known Boosh star Noel Fielding, I thought someone like that would want to look 'great' if you know what I mean. But it was nice to see someone who obviously feels that people worrying about appearance shouldn't be a big issue. Not only that, but since she's been spending a lot of time in mainland Europe, I know it's the norm in a lot of countries.
Still, it was refreshing none the less.
Basically, what I'm saying is if you wanna do it - go for it! Don't take any rubbish from anyone who says it's awful because it's all about what you think :]
Just as some people conduct relationships with individuals who don't insist on pedicuring their nails and exfoliating their knee-caps and plucking their eyebrows. It's not really an attraction because of, it's not really an attraction despite of... it's an attraction that doesn't care about being perfectly groomed and conforming to a Gilette Venus's idea of a beautiful body. Meh, I don't know, it's hard to discuss because I have my opinion and I understand the other opinions... I just find them frustratingly narrow-minded.
I definitely find it hard to muster the energy to really go at it on this topic because it's so polarised, and I feel like it's been brainwashing of a sort. What's the point in talking differences with people who essentially think we should all be the same at skin level, and only allowed to express our choices and preferences and - yes - our personality and beliefs and values through the clothes we buy and the warpaint we slap on?
I'm yet to be called disgusting/lazy/unhygienic, for the record
Who the hell is that aimed at?
Nobody's said anyting of the sort.
Well maybe not of the sort, but along that wavelength. All the stuff about dressing up a certain way, wearing certain clothes etc that Kiezo was talking about a while back. This idea that as long as we're all silken and smooth underneath then the external differences can manifest. Ah I'm off on some wild tangent here, so ignore it
On the actual topic, Namaste, I think you should give it a try and see how it makes you feel and whether it actually makes any difference to people's attitudes to you. I doubt it will, but it may make a difference to you. It might even be an interesting case study in human nature... possibly...
Either I'm missing the point or you're completely contradicting yourself here. I was under the impression skin level covered things like clothing choices and preferences, as well as piercings, tats, haircut and whatever else.
As for the other part, you're right. I know the first thing I think of when I see someone in a red tshirt is that he's a Trotskyist, and that's the way it should be,
I wish I could have written that. I've been called lazy for not bothering to shave by one person in my life - and that person was not worth my time to be honest.
As Briggi said, For people that are worth knowing, then body hair will be neither here nor there. Just like you shouldnt feel you have to wear makeup to conform, if you really dont like it, You shouldnt feel you have to shave. If you want to shave, then thats fine, but if it pisses you off, then just dont.