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Labour ceased to care about the working class in the 70's when Benn et al realised that the working class wasn't interested in nuclear disarmament and republicanism, but as whole were rather fond of the Queen and patriotic. Even when Blair et al moved the Labour Party to the middle ground they realised the working class don't vote and define their policies to suit middle-class liberals, who do.
Well, maybe in the discussion they'll uncover that a bit. I think it's something topical and important to a lot of people. Ignoring it will just mean people will come up with ideas based on ignorance. Looking at race and asking whether white, working class people have less support / voice than others is just that - looking. I don't think it's an assertion a la BNP propaganda, I think it's a genuine concern and it's hard to say with certainty one way or the other.
I think there is a stigma attatched to seeking help if you're white and working class though - watch the full monty and how distressed they get at being jobless. I know it's not a factual film
I'm sure it affects all of the working class no matter what race, but the fact is there are lobbying groups and high status campaigns - look at the media - for people of ethnic minorities. Racism, racially motivated, are all massive buzzwords that sell papers these days. If it's controversial it's a good story. Have to say further to that that white working class people may feel prejudiced against themselves, since their portrayal in most media is normally that of the 'chav' or whatever. Working class in many circles has become a synonym for anti-social person.
Good point. In fact the split might have started in the 1960s with trade unionists forcing Labour to restrict Commonwealth immigrants and coming out in support of Enoch Powell.
No, they aren't. We have positive discrimination, and the undermining of employment law through removal of union and so forth. That means immigrants can actually be here in the first place. Get strong unions, fixed contracts etc and immigrants aren't an issue because they aren't in the country, they are priced out.
Labour and the previous tory administrations have been quite ruthless in promoting a free market ideology (for everyone but the politcal class) which has meant that for example, polish brickies have been allowed in. Once in, they work for much less that domestic workers and will put up with worse conditions. This is because they are working for what is relative to their own currency mega bucks. A few years in the UK, working all hours god sends and then back home to buy a home outright is not an uncommon event. Meanwhile, oiur house prices have gone to the moon and any aspiriation to climb the ladder has gone, because the rungs are smashed until halfway up the class scale.
This phenomenon is only here because of the factors I mentioned.
The rest of your post is too hostile in tone to merit a detailed response so you are getting one liners. I have no intention of defending a position I do not even have against such hysteria.
No special groups for non whtes? Please.
Are you suggesting there is one law for whites and another for non-whites? Yep, there obviously is.
Class without race? Well...ok but do it the other way around too. Poor black people face no extra issues because they are black, if that's the position, it's all down to class alone.
The real question is whether the feeling that white working class people have is actually based in reality. We would only find that out by measuring real events, not by deciding either way based on prejudice. You are obviously firmly anti racist, which is a good thing and a position I support whole heartedly, but I just see emotional bias in it.
That white working class people have an axe to grind against immigrants and others who are ..for instance..getting tax money for ethnic community centres and quran's in the local library while they struggle to pay the bills seems pretty irrefutable to me.
You will find that there is plenty of non-white representation in the unions- always have been. In fact it would be fair to say the unions (at least the mainstream unions I can think of) have been at the forefront of racial relations and integration.
I think you're mixing several issues here.
Care to elaborate what those groups are, and more to the point how they affect white working class people or put them at a disadvantage.
The only groups set up to help minority groups that exist have been created to offer support and to aim for equality. Doing that does not put white working class people at a disadvantage any more than the existence of gay support groups put straight people at a disadvantage. Does it?
Really? Please enlighten us.
This should be good...
I know hundreds of white working class people and not a single one of them have ever thought they are at a disadvantage against non-whites or immigrants.
As I said before there are many issues and problems working class people in this country face. The problems are not created by non-whites, nor the plight of white working class people is any greater than that of non-whites.
Tax money that is provided by immigrants as much as by whitey of course... and which goes to benefit "non-ethnic" community centres and bibles in the local library as well.
That last paragraph of yours could have been copied and pasted form the BNP website. And of course it is complete rubbish.
No, what pisses people off (of all classes, and legal immigrants too) is seeing a government that doesn't have a clue about the subject of immigration, with a pathetic, muddled approach that solves nothing. It doesn't have the faintest idea how many illegals are in the country, (the link between illegal immigration and crime is clear enough - people smuggling, people being killed whist trying to get in the UK and so on) it kicks out people who are here legally and contributing to society... (take a look at The Independent's front page story today for evidence of this) ...in short, it doesn't have a fucking clue what it's doing. The same applies to most areas of life. We see a government which avoids dealing with the big problems, and people start wondering who is to blame. And it's in the governmental interests for people to do that, as it distracts from their own failings.
Either way, I think this debate has a lot of smoke and mirrors in it. Are you going to accuse me of the same?
^ Thread answered in one post, yeah. This here.
Sums it up entirley. If the working class had a voice, we'd have better treatment and the poor bloody poles wouldn't have half of them be working under minimum wage.
Working classes are forgotten in todays nice middle class society.
You aren't interested in that though and so haven't advanced any facts, merely opinions.
Obviously the case.
Never said they weren't. I said that strong unions keep immigration down through simple economics.
Try google for looking for ethnic groups that help minorities economically, politically, socially.
Next, learn that not having an advantage is not being put at a disadvantage. My neighbour having a strong networking group based on his ethnicity doesn't take anything from me, it's just a benefit to him. We both start off with nothing, like all people.
Again, you show win/loss thinking, as though there is a fxed amount of help and only so much to go around. If Billy has an apple then Bob must have lost an apple is poor thinking.
If both Billy and Bob have nothing, but Bob is offered help to get food, then he is better off, but it takes nothing from Billy at all.
There is plenty of legislation in place. Again, google is your friend.
That's fine, because that's not what this is about. immigrant groups get help, minority groups get help, specialist help. White working class do not get specialist help. There is no English club next door to my Polish club and nor could there be. There is no English centre next to my local West Indian centre either, nor could there be.
The issues are the same, the help available is different. That's pretty much all I am saying.
Not at all. Most taxes are paid by white working class people. This is just a fact. The ethnic groups get all the same services as "whitey" plus the extra ones that only they have an interest in and so they get more out of the system. This is simple economics, not race.
If Bob gets everything Billy gets, plus a few more items that he is interested in but Bob is not, he is better off economically, even if they paid the same price for admission.
Obvious, simple, true.
Two big assumption there...
1. That the "working class" voted.
2. That they then voted labour.
Are you sure about that? I think you have to be earning a fair whack before you're officially putting more into the system than you're taking out. I suspect that the middle class white people are the ones that pay the most tax as a group.
The white middle class get their money from the working class via profit. At least, this is the case if you believe basic class analysis.
gotcha
What would be even better, would be tomorrow's world again.
And the working class get their money from the upper class via wages. So in that case, movement of money pays taxes, so to try and pin that down to a single group is impossible. And the middle classes pay more taxes on wages, savings and spending on luxuries (the only thing that requires VAT).
Money is used to divide up resources, and resources are created by labour - the working clases.
Any way you cut it, those that labour provide for those that don't.
Those with substantial savings, the option to not work are not working class. Those who own their homes outright are not working class. Those who can downsize and take years off at a time are not working class. Those on the dole are not working class, failing the "working " part of the definition.
almost lol. pcso.
My point is though, that in a modern society simply labelling everyone who works as being in the working class doesn't really apply. Maybe it did in a society made wholly of owners or workers, but I don't think it applies to ours.
(it's been a long time since I talked Marx lol)
Ah fair enough. Maybe a more concrete definition of class would have helped at the start, before we went into guardian versus reality territory with the lamp rubber.
How many generations does a family have to have lived here before they can describe their newborn as British? One? Two? Three? Or do you believe people of certain races can never be British?
That is certainly what you appear to be saying. Apologies if it isn't.
I don't think see how they would to be honest.
There are plenty of organisations in place to help everyone regardless of their ethnicity.
There are some groups that seek to help those from minority groups, for sure. But they are there to help them integrate with the predominant culture (something that you should actually be happy about). Would you want organisations in place to help white people integrate? Of course not. There is no need. Think about it.
I am still to hear how any groups or organisations deviced to help minority groups prejudice white people, or put them at a disadvantage in any way whatsoever.
No there isn't.
Let me ensure we're talking about the same thing. If we're talking about positive discrimination when applying for certain jobs, I don't deny that exists. Its extent is limited and its benefits debatable, but that's about it.
If you are suggesting anything else (like actual legislation or laws that discriminate between whites and non-whites) then you are most definitely wrong. But if you know otherwise please provide some examples and I'll be happy to admit I was wrong.
What extra services are these?
If we are talking pure economics here (i.e. white people pay more taxes because there are more of them) then it is also true that a far higher proprortion of taxes get used for white working class "interests" (if there is such a thing) since there are far more of them in the country.
There are no extra services or resources for non-whites, or unfair or disproportionate use of resources. That's just malicious propaganda and rubbish.
To be fair a more accurate definition of class would have to consider the basis by which the term 'class' was even invented - it's how class a person's work is to the profit that creates it and their share of that profit that more closely defines a persons class.
A person who spends 40 hours working in a factory that makes a product that generates a huge profit for someone else whose only involvement was to provide the capital to build the factory is working class. They are so far removed from the eventual profit created that it's clear that they are providing their labour in return for only enough money to basically survive.
Middle class people in a marxist sense tend to occupy management roles, gaining higher salaries as they are closer to those in the upper class who have the capital to invest.
Your definition basically covers almost every single person in the UK - very, very few people own their own homes outright, very few people ever, ever take years off work - the word 'work' is something of a misnomer - surely you aren't implying that a woman from a working class family who stays at home to look after her children is somehow removed from being a member of the working class? Yet she does the same work as an upper middle class woman who stays at home to look after her children.
Your last point seems to contradict the rest of the post, though it's something I can broadly agree with. I won't nitpick though, it's the tool of tools.
Yes, I would say most people are working class. The relative wealth of everyone tends to mask this fact - a good house and a good car (all bought on credit) isn't the middle class marker it once was, in the same way that owning a big TV no longer is. Wealth creation has moved on, and any definition of working class must move with it imo. it's got to be a relative definition by it's very nature. There were no working class cavemen.
Most peopel are debt slaves, to money that never even existed. It's very clever, the new capitalism.
That's a good point too. Most also seem to go to oxbridge or at least russel group universities. But I think thats the inequality inherit in the system. Those who have power are able to manipulate things to ensure that their ilk stay in power. Even if this is just by sending them to the right school and handshakes with people in top companies and things, it's all very who you know vs. what you know.
Sorry, studied this last term. I'm no expert. If and when the show is on TV I'll try and get a link or something. Has it already been shown?
And look at what happens to ministers when they leave office. Patricia Hewitt, who was an absolute disaster as Health Secretary is now advising a pharmaceutical company. Tony Blair, the great war criminal, is now helping to bring peace to the Middle East/making crap speeches for hundreds of thousands of pounds/cashing in at a huge American bank. Whilst we've got people like this in charge, massive distrust of politicians amongst all social classes will remain.
The biggest mistake we ever made politicially in this country was condemning politicians who line their pockets in the City or do other jobs. We now have career politicians, and they're a thousand times worse. At least the ministers who also worked in business have some idea how a business works. At least they had some idea what it was like having to earn enough money to get grub on the table... which is more than our current over-paid MPs can do.