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Are the White Working Class voiceless in Britain?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
The Beeb is currently planning a series of docs that ask this question, how do people here feel? I have heard people complaining that the white man is becoming a second class citizen in Britain since I was a kid in the 70s but how true is this in your own experiences?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/white/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7279997.stm
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4418&edition=1&ttl=20080306103602
http://www.bbc.co.uk/white/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7279997.stm
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4418&edition=1&ttl=20080306103602
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Comments
I guess that puts paid to any suggestions that the BBC is left wing and only caters for the 'liberal elite'.
Well in all fairness to the Beeb, the question is one relevant for debate. Its a huge topic at the moment and I wouldn't say dismissing it helps.
It does put paid to the claim that the only people who rubbish programmes without seeing them are right wng nutjobs, though.
It's an issue in todays society as a whole.I have experienced plenty of racism at the hands of Black and asian people personally which is as equally unacceptable as racism towards them. Racism itself is just ugly.
in terms of being voiceless, i don't think that is the case but i can see why people could think that way. One of our lecturers was talking about how there has been so much pressure to close the attainment gap between black boys and others that there are now white children who are underacheiving cause the teachers were focussing on closing that gap, not on other members of the class - i don't know how true that is though as it was just something she was saying. If you have people saying stuff like that who are respected, chances are alot of people are going to take that on as fact, which generates issues.
I think you just proved that the white working class are left out.
There are greivances for the working class - static or falling wages for a decade, undermining of employment status through big businesses use of immigrant labour, the massive hike in house prices over the last decade, loss of the unions, the government cracking down on traditional pleasures such as smoking and pub life, tax hikes at the lower end, inflation, the reliance for a lot of working class on secondary benefits, loss of legal assistance, ASBO responses to minor kerfuffles, qualification inflation pushing them out of the job market for no good reason...the list does go on.
A lot of the issues that face all working class people are mitigated for those from minorities because those minorities have specialist support groups, legislation, pressure groups et al, whereas their equivalent white groups do not. There is just a blanket assumption that there is an imbalance that needs addressing in favour of minority groups..which is in fact giving them the advantage in a lot of areas. A white english only organisation of any description is completely beyond the pale, but you can have any number of chinese, asian, african, polish etc etc organisations and no one will bat an eye.
Whether those grievances are genunine or not, the way they are dealt with is one sided and to suggest that pointing this out is equivalent to being part of a despicable race hate group like the BNP is intellectually dishonest at best.
There is truth in what you're lecturer is saying though. I did some research looking at educational underachievement and there is a focus on ethnic minority pupils that is missing for working class white pupils. This is because the focus is incorrectly placed on ethnicity and not economic status.
That, for the most part, is just myths.
Indeed. Because they are minority groups and more vulnerable. That is why it is correct that there should be support groups for gay people but not for straight people.
There's no CRE defending the rights of the white working class. There's no "social inclusion" money helping the white working class. The assumption in many cities is that the immigrant populations are in the weak position and need help; no help is forthcoming for the white working class.
Most of the communities at the bottom of the pile are voiceless but I believe that the white working class are particularly voiceless. The problems they face- rising tax, rising unemployment, rising housing costs- apply to most people at the bottom but there are no white working class champions.
If there were white working class champions the BNP wouldn't have a look in. The BNP are filling a vacuum with their racist filth, but their success proves the existence of the vacuum.
White working class people are voiceless because too much emphasis is placed on racial background and not enough emphasis is placed on social background. The poor of all colours face the same problems but the white poor don't have any time spent on them because everyone focuses more on their whiteness than their poverty. Everyone assumes that the white man is privileged when most are anything but.
:rolleyes:
A lot of people here are talking nonsense. The only support minority groups get relates to victim support, racial integration or a few certain social issues. It has fuck all to do with being working class or tackling the everyday problems anyone of working class background faces in this country.
The 'working class' issue is irrelevant to the argument, and the challenges and support (or lack thereof) faced by working class people in this country is virtually identical regardless of the colour of their skin. To bring race into a class argument is not only irrelevant but potentially harmful for society as a whole.
1) look at the problem and try and deal with it
2) stick your head in the sand, and pull it out occassionally to shout 'racist' at everyone else
I think option 1 is more likely to work
The challenges are the same but the support is not.
There are no schemes tackling social exclusion for white people. There are no schemes tackling low academic achievement for white children. There is no body like the CRE for white people; the CRE aren't just about tackling racism, they have their grubby hands in a lot of pots.
That isn't to say that the poor from ethnic background have it easy and that they have lots of support. They don't. But they have a damn sight more support than white people from the same economic background.
I don't think anyone is trying to bring race into a class argument.
But it is beyond doubt that race affects how much help you can get for your socioeconomic problems. And those from ethnic minorities get an awful lot more help.
The ethnic minorities don't get enough help, and their help shouldn't be reduced, but that isn't what's being claimed either. Ethnic minorities get a lot of help compared to those from poor white backgrounds, but compared to how much help they should get they don't get enough.
Pointing this out isn't racist. Shouting RACIST! at anyone who raises this point is what causes the problems. If you tell non-racist people that they are racist then they decide that they might as well be racist. If you tell non-racist people that they are racist then they feel- quite rightly- that they are being marginalised and ignored. If everything that happens to a black person or community is claimed to be "racist" then people feel marginalised and ignored (i.e. the vandalism to the Stephen Lawrence Centre. It wasn't racist, it was mindless vandalism in a decrepid area against something shiny and new).
And when you start marginalising and ignoring one group of disenfranchised people on racial grounds then you carve open a clear route to electoral success for filth like the BNP.
ETA: The attitude that white people are racist pervades a lot of society and saw white people getting the blame for the "race riots" in the north isn't helping things. White people see ethnic minorities getting more help and when they complain they're called racist scum. It's no wonder they feel disenfranchised and vote BNP is it?
Not sure if you're aware, but at least from my prospects at looking at a career in London there is certainly a heavy weighting for ethnic positions. This is supposed to address a balance that white dominates many jobs already, but is positive discrimination the way to go about it?
Anyway, only posting it up because it's just what I've noticed a lot, increasingly careers seminars are for people from a certain ethnic minority only, whole organisations being set up specifically to help people of ethnic origins get jobs.
I don't think there's any harm in opening up the debate with a question. I genuinely don't know if they're any more disadvantaged. I've heard before from numerous people (not just who you assume to be skinheads) that the least represented people are white, working class, men. That's not to say they're disadvantaged, but the points others have raised here that there are no specific groups to provide them with support.
I think it's a very broad assumption to say
"The only support minority groups get relates to victim support, racial integration or a few certain social issues. It has fuck all to do with being working class or tackling the everyday problems anyone of working class background faces in this country."
simply because that's completely untrue. To what extent they get help and to what extent it's justified is a whole different matter, but to say they don't get extra help with looking for jobs is just making up your own reality.
How is an Asian man working silly hours for his employer in a corner shop less disadvantaged than a white man working in another shop? How is the voice of a black street sweeper more heard than that of a white one?
In fact, there is a lot more common between people of different races but the same social background (i.e. unskilled manual workers) than there is between two white (or two black) men of different backgrounds (i.e. one working class and the other middle class).
'Is the Working Class Voiceless in Britain?' would have made an interesting programme and an issue worthy of exploring. The inclusion of the word 'white' into it introduces a nasty and completely uncalled for new angle to the issue.
Agree 100%. Problems facing the poor in this country are economic not racial.
I think you are misreading the intent of the programme, though, certainly from the trailers I've seen.
The working class generally has little voice but different elements of it has different voices. Those with the least voice are the white working class men. There are supposed to be in the 'majority' and as such they don't have any special interest groups campaigning for them. They don't have extra help with training, they don't have any focus on their education. They have no voice and are not seen.
As I said (to which I note you have not responded) nobody is saying that the ethnic minorities have it easy and that they are always heard. But they are at least acknowledged as existing and they do have some special interest groups working for them. The white working class do not have that help; if they're mentioned at all its in connection with Waynetta Slob and the ASBO kids.
I still don't don't think it is the case though. You could argue that a prevailing majority of people within a society can never be voiceless since countless aspects of everyday life, from popular culture to the media, are already attending to the needs, wishes and anxieties of the prevailing majority.
I would say that was true if you look at all white people but not so of the working class ones.
If that was the case, then we'd have strong unions, strong employment contracts, equal groups for white people when they needed help, equal legislation, no positive discrimination, smoking in pubs.....in short it would be 1973 again.
Things are actually run for pensioners and middle class folks and the political "we know best" class, because they vote or manipulate voters. A lot of working class men for example can't vote because they are now sofa hopping due to being priced out of housing. Not that many of them would do anyway, political working class movements have all long been strangled at birth whenever they appear.
It leads to a lot of stupid racism, resentment and really is storing up trouble foir the future.
I'd imagine the program will spend a lot of time looking at why politics is now so focused on the middle class (especially in the New Labour era) - to the detrement of all working class people with race as a useful hook.
To be fair, Radio 1 did a fantastic job of portraying all white working-class people as racist fucks, with the usual quotes about "foreigners stealing our jobs" and "bending over backwards for minorities." I live in a white working-class area, and most people aren't like that at all.
What is that supposed to mean? Are you suggesting white people have nowhere to turn to if they need help?
And if so, what groups do non-whites have that whites don't?
Are you suggesting there is one law for whites and another for non-whites?
I wouldn't disagree. What's why a programme about the working class having no voice would have been interesting and a debate on it welcomed.
But the inclusion of the word 'white' devalues the entire debate and makes it into something else for no good reason whatsoever.
Only for those uncapable of separating social class issues from race issues. The two have bugger all to do with each other.
I agree, it turns a sensible question into a loaded question. I'd say that race is a useful comparison point though, in that politicians or the media might be very careful not to represent ethnic minorities in a stereotypical way, but wouldn't think twice about representing working-class people (of any race) in this way. Similar to the debate we had on the representation of young people we discussed on here. Nothing to do with race or racism, but it can act as a useful comparison of something where it's not acceptable to generalize against an entire group.
Last time they did have a voice, they voted this Labour government in. What do you expect?
That's what I thought ....