1 in 100 adult Americans are in jail

BillieTheBot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/01/usa

And 1 in 9 young black men in the 20-34 age group is also in prison.


Unbe-fucking-lievable.



Prison works, eh? :rolleyes:

Former Member

It's the USA's 3 strikes rule I believe. Smoke drugs twice and you're fine. Drop some litter and you're fucked.

Might not be quite so simplistic, but thats the jist of it I believe.

Plus they're willing to put people in prison for things like posession of cannabis e.t.c. which to us over here the idea is laughable.

Former Member

Why doesn't it surprise me that Aladdin is the one who started this thread? And why is it even less of a surprise that this story appears in the newspaper that dare not speak its name?

Former Member

Love it that our two "hang 'em high" users don't seem to understand the underlying message that this sends...

Former Member

I think Aladdin's sarcasm is justified in this case. If we look at the rationale for prision as deterrent and prevention of further crime, the reoffending rate suggests that this is failing horrifically.

If you would like a constructive solution, as Whowhere has observed, minor drug offenders absolutely fill prisons. America's broad policy (variation between states not withstanding) in the war on drugs has succeeded primarily in fostering and reinforcing structures and practices of criminality, especially in deprived communities. It flies in the face of successful practice evidence and also of wider policy research.

There are alternatives, they HAVE been on the table for yonks, and are well known. With respect I cannot see how people cannot see a major social problem as self evident here.

Former Member

i fail to understand the attack on laddin ...

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote: »

i fail to understand the attack on aladdin

There's no attack whatsoever. I'm merely saying this thread is no surprise at all. Either way, this is pointless. Brits may well take huge interest in what goes on in the USA, but the feeling almost certainly isn't mutual. Americans themselves know that there are many social malaises which need dealing with right now - the presidential candidates have been highlighting a lot of them, when they're not trying to smear each other's reputations. It's up to them to deal with it.

In any case, Britain's hardly in a place to lecture about this. Our prisons are choc-a-bloc right now as well. Any Americans reading this could easily say "get your own house in order before criticising us".

Former Member

Americs is full og shit. When i'm sobert I'll explain, bnut it's still fujll of shit. :yes:

Former Member

stargalaxy wrote: »

There's no attack whatsoever. I'm merely saying this thread is no surprise at all.

So different people care about different things. Big deal. Still fail to see how it merits a comment that I posted the thread or that it appeared in the Guardian (are you suggesting they made it up?).

In any case, Britain's hardly in a place to lecture about this. Our prisons are choc-a-bloc right now as well. Any Americans reading this could easily say "get your own house in order before criticising us".

Read the article. Proportionally the Americans have far, far more people in jail than we do.

Something clearly is wrong with the system when such incredibly high numbers of people are in jail. You should be able to draw your own conclusions from it. One of them clearly is that prison often does not work as a deterrent. Another is that how healthy can a society be when such high proportion of its people are incarcerated? Is it because so many people are wrong ones and deserve to rot in jail? Or is it because there is something very wrong with the current mentality and policies there?

3-strikes-and-you-are-out is one of the most appalling, disproportionate, socially damaging and evil polices ever created. I should imagine overzealous judges and laws should shoulder some of the blame. A society can be judged by the number of people it jails. On that respect the US has a failed society.

Former Member

Aladdin wrote: »

Something clearly is wrong with the system when such incredibly high numbers of people are in jail. You should be able to draw your own conclusions from it. One of them clearly is that prison often does not work as a deterrent...

I've been saying something very similar this week about the UK. Here, politicians have just used prisons as social dustbins to conceal their failure to deal with social malaises. Under that "ideology", prisons were bound to get more and more full. So, did they build more prisons or ask if we're jailing too many people? If only. Prisons here are now stuffed to the rafters with barely a cell available. Which sounds extremely similar to the USA to me...

Another is that how healthy can a society be when such high proportion of its people are incarcerated? Is it because so many people are wrong ones and deserve to rot in jail? Or is it because there is something very wrong with the current mentality and policies there?

If I remember correctly, many of the policies governing this in the USA come from the 1980s. For example, that would be when New York started zero tolerance and a large prison-building programme. Eventually, crime had fallen and many of these prisons were sold off to private companies. US politicians have done exactly the same as the ones here do - panic.

3-strikes-and-you-are-out is one of the most appalling, disproportionate, socially damaging and evil polices ever created. I should imagine overzealous judges and laws should shoulder some of the blame. A society can be judged by the number of people it jails. On that respect the US has a failed society.

Much more questionable. A society can be judged on many factors other than the number of people it jails. For example, I could judge it by the treatment that the elderly get. The treatment that the mentally ill receive is another. In both cases, Britain can't exactly take the moral high ground.

Former Member

SG if you look at the research (which I am happy to provide for your perusal on request) I think you might be less defensive/ambivalent about the three strikes policy.

Former Member

Martin_Bashir wrote: »

SG if you look at the research (which I am happy to provide for your perusal on request) I think you might be less defensive/ambivalent about the three strikes policy.

Alright then, surprise me.

Former Member

Therre are cases of people in wheelchairs who can actualy work ...if they use medical marijuana. Theres a case i know of where a woman has now been arrested and fined twice for possesion of small ammounts of her medicine ...next time ...she will get life ...

Former Member

...Life imprisonment for a guy like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6UTnS6Z-A

Former Member

bUT THERES ALWAYS HOPE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHS_y94H1Dk

Former Member

Incacerax ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRPxN7DGy5c

Former Member

Alright then, surprise me.

I hope to. What I am going to do is try and cite some relevant sources for you. Its my day off today so you'll excuse me not traipsing through the library today - will get back to you as soon as I can, will put something together and have it up by friday. Have put it in my PDA to do.

Former Member

Dont you remember that documentary though. A lot of the people who were in prison didnt seem to mind, some even preferred it. Once you leave jail and cannot find work due to your criminal record, have no money or income, resorting to crime, either to raise income or go back to prison (free food, somwhere to sleep) might be quite appealing.

Former Member

Jonny8888 wrote: »

Dont you remember that documentary though. A lot of the people who were in prison didnt seem to mind, some even preferred it. Once you leave jail and cannot find work due to your criminal record, have no money or income, resorting to crime, either to raise income or go back to prison (free food, somwhere to sleep) might be quite appealing.

That's not an argument for prisons.

Former Member

Jails are also very big employers in parts of the US with low employment rates, which adds to the pressure to keep them full.

Former Member

budda wrote: »

Jails are also very big employers in parts of the US with low employment rates, which adds to the pressure to keep them full.

My betting is they are about to build huge camps ...to cram in another million.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote: »

My betting is they are about to build huge camps ...to cram in another million.

Personally I think quite the opposite, the massive cost of their 'law and order' programme is going to be the motivation for change to a more European model.

Former Member

budda wrote: »

Personally I think quite the opposite, the massive cost of their 'law and order' programme is going to be the motivation for change to a more European model.

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/government/camp9-97.html

Former Member

budda wrote: »

Personally I think quite the opposite, the massive cost of their 'law and order' programme is going to be the motivation for change to a more European model.

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/government/camp9-97.html

FEMA CONCENTRATION CAMPS: Locations and Executive Orders



There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft's list.

http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1062

Former Member

KBR, the Halliburton subsidiary recently reprimanded for gross overcharging in its military contracts in Iraq, won a $385 million contract to build the centers. According to the Halliburton website -- www. Halliburton .com -- "the contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs."

....or to support the rapid development of new programs."


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/8/13851/75112

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote: »

There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft's list.

http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1062

Hmm, I'm not convinced by that link to be quite honest - but even if they are there the UK government has even more power under the Civil Continginces Act.

But, back in the more day-to-day world I really think the US cant afford its prisons on a long term basis and this will mean they will re-evaluate their criminal justice model.

Former Member

budda wrote: »

Hmm, I'm not convinced by that link to be quite honest - but even if they are there the UK government has even more power under the Civil Continginces Act.

But, back in the more day-to-day world I really think the US cant afford its prisons on a long term basis and this will mean they will re-evaluate their criminal justice model.

Loads of info available about the camps ...some of which are already up and running but mostly full of muslims ...one with two hundred children in it! ...With their parents of course. These are American born.
The camp comes complete with double fencing topped with razor wire and a death zone running between them.
No one wants to believe these things ...no one realy cares ...most people expect the world to carry on same as it ever was. Despite the powers the president has been granted ...despite the president saying he is above the law ...despite all manner of things being set up to overide or suspend the constitution ...despite everything ...no one believes anything is going to change ...most hoping that this part of world history will be reassuringly boring.
It's you young uns i feel sorry for ...

Former Member

FAO Stargalaxy

http://www.msccsp.org/publications/strikes.html

An excellent overview of the overwhelmingly negative bulk of research on the three strikes law can be found here - a good overview piece taking in lots of research pieces, from a reputable source (University of Maryland).

Former Member

(bump)

just like to point out to SG that you called me on my evidence to surprise you in this post, after you had made some sweeping statements about the issue.

I just wondered what you thought now that you've seen a summary of the case against the three strikes rule.

Former Member

Thanks for that. I'll reply in full to the article shortly.