Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

Rape adverts

2

Comments

  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Yea, I think if we want to look realistically at the profile of a rapist they're probably not for the most part sick sadistic individuals who aren't socially integrated etc. and come out of their shells as a predator to target women. It's a case more likely of a guy and a girl, both possibly had something to drink, the girl says no and the guy goes too far and doesn't stop. But I very much doubt he went out that night with the intention of raping someone.

    Not that it's not his responsibility, but if we are considering that people's judgement is impaired when they're drinking, how much of an effect will telling people 'just don't do it' have? I doubt the jail sentence will be a deterrant either. Nor even if we had a higher conviction rate. To me I can only imagine it's not premeditated - the guy may be infatuated or attracted to the girl for some time - but the idea of rape I doubt would enter a reasonable person's mind.

    But reasonable men can and do rape, which is wholly unacceptable, and I think whilst not the only reason the 'drink' culture does not help matters at all.

    Having said that, it needs to be a multi-tiered strategy. Making women safer - drink bottle stoppers, rape alarms, awareness of not walking home alone, staying in a group etc - and making men have more respect for women. The worrying thing is when people say 'men need to respect women more', there seems the assumption that most men don't. Whereas I think everyone in this thread, on this site, do respect a girl when she says no and say 'ok'. Are we targeting the wrong group of people? Preaching to the choir, etc.

    :yes: to all that.,
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    @J

    You are overlooking the violence and cruelty involved in a rape. To say you don't want to take sides between the practitioner of cruelty and the victim of it, is not natural. Even small children know to be repelled by cruelty, unless they have been somehow warped by the environment around them.

    Maybe you are just trying to be open minded and non judgemental, I don't know, but beware you don't become so open minded that your brains fall out. When something is obviously wrong, like rape, murder, etc, you are not being too judgemental in just stating its wrong. That's just common sense.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Also I wanted to add that just because something is "natural" is doesn't mean it's okay. Ants (apparently) practise genocide at times.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J you don't sound insightful, you sound unwell again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm also aware of what you've said about rape before, both as a victim and from other sides. If you keep swamping debates about rape with your own personal delusions outside of the debate that is actually taking place (you want to heal the schism of rape by avoiding the biggest friendly fire of all time by using thought like teleportation) then I'm gonna have to ask you to take some time out.

    This isn't a board where you can simply spout out everything in your head, especially given where you seem to be right now. So maybe a break migth be a good thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I'll give you to the morning then we'll look at this again. Sorry man, but plenty of people are getting pretty concerned and I don't think this is helping.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Okay J, I'm gonna remove comments not relevant to this discussion of the adverts about rape from here on out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of course rape's natural. But it's a natural reaction to a certain set of environmental factors, just like someone who's been given everything they would ever need wouldn't steal without having some mental condition. The alternative is to say that South Africans are genetically predisposed to rape, or are all sociopaths, which is just wrong. Rape also goes up in times of war. It's often seen as a result of male coalitionary violence, which is an attribute of all men. And that's why the attitude of men needs to be changed in order to repell people to the idea of taking advantage of vulnerable women. I've witnessed first hand a bloke telling his group of friend about having sex with an unconscious girl (whether it was true or not), and his friends laughing about it, and almost congratulating him on it. I suspect the same bloke would be the first to condemn rape if their were girls in the room. So social attitudes of men need to change before rapes will go down. I suspect that there are plenty of other causes for rape too, but attempting to make it as taboo among groups of lads as it is in public discourse can't be a bad thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote: »
    That people become weak willed when drunk. I know I do...
    If drink makes you "weak willed" then don't drink. It could save you a jail sentence or a broken jaw in the long run.

    I think the video is too soft.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Yea, I think if we want to look realistically at the profile of a rapist they're probably not for the most part sick sadistic individuals who aren't socially integrated etc. and come out of their shells as a predator to target women. It's a case more likely of a guy and a girl, both possibly had something to drink, the girl says no and the guy goes too far and doesn't stop. But I very much doubt he went out that night with the intention of raping someone.
    I see it as about culture. Else rape would not be used as a 'weapon of war'. At the end of the day, many women are still partially, if not wholly blamed for rape because they wore a low cut top, or flirted and some men feel this gives them the green light to have sex with a woman even against her consent. But yeah, I don't believe that all men go out with the intention of raping someone, but I also believe that subconsciously quite a few men must have that desire and must feel justified in doing so. *
    Not that it's not his responsibility, but if we are considering that people's judgement is impaired when they're drinking, how much of an effect will telling people 'just don't do it' have? I doubt the jail sentence will be a deterrant either. Nor even if we had a higher conviction rate. To me I can only imagine it's not premeditated - the guy may be infatuated or attracted to the girl for some time - but the idea of rape I doubt would enter a reasonable person's mind.
    I wonder if you could argue this for a child abuser or wife beater.
    But reasonable men can and do rape, which is wholly unacceptable, and I think whilst not the only reason the 'drink' culture does not help matters at all.
    Or the "women are meat" culture.
    Having said that, it needs to be a multi-tiered strategy. Making women safer - drink bottle stoppers, rape alarms, awareness of not walking home alone, staying in a group etc - and making men have more respect for women.
    I disagree. Let's stop making women adapt to a men's world. We all know women will be blamed for being raped if they're not carrying rape alarms. I don't think it's about 'respect', but empathy and culture.

    * Corrected because I typed it in a rush and it didn't come out as what I mean.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J - if rape is natural (Or at least not un-natural) why is it that most men don't?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm playing devils advocate here, but it could be argued that pologamy is "natural", but most men choose not to do it, because Western society dictates that a 'family' or couple means one man and one woman.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I see it as about culture. Else rape would not be used as a 'weapon of war'. At the end of the day, many women are still partially, if not wholly blamed for rape because they wore a low cut top, or flirted and some men feel this gives them the green light to have sex with a woman even against her consent. But yeah, I don't believe that men go out with the intention of raping someone, but I also believe that subconsciously a man must have that desire and must feel justified in doing so.

    Men have the subconscious desire to rape? Well, that's a new one.
    I wonder if you could argue this for a child abuser or wife beater.

    It depends on the circumstance. I would guess a lot of child abuse and domestic violence occurs when alcohol again, is involved. So yes, you could say that it does not mitigate the person's responsibility but alcohol plays it's part. The difference however being that rape is probably more spontaneous rather than the systems of abuse in both of your examples.
    Or the "women are meat" culture.

    Are you just making this up as you go along?
    I disagree. Let's stop making women adapt to a men's world. We all know women will be blamed for being raped if they're not carrying rape alarms. I don't think it's about 'respect', but empathy and culture.

    It gets very tiresome when you need to reiterate the same points again, and again. Yes, rape is a violent crime and it's carried about by men, but in dealing with it we can't just say 'stupid men' and ignore the reasons it occurs. It's not justified in any way shape or form but the simple fact remains if you are less responsible for yourself than you are more likely to be a victim. Same with burglary. If you leave your windows open you're more likely to get burgled. You could use the same argument. Except, it doesn't have the punchy 'Let's stop making women adapt to a men's world' sound bite. I think empathy and culture are needed, along with respect. They go hand in hand.

    I find it offensive you feel rape is what constitutes a 'man's world' or what men would have in their ideal world. And I think this is sometimes a prevalent view that all men are rapists (also referring to your comment about men subconsciously wanting to rape). I don't believe we live in a 'man's world', although that's a different argument altogether and we shouldn't change the debate about rape adverts into the oh so typical 'men vs. women' debate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Men have the subconscious desire to rape?
    Yes, rape is a violent crime and it's carried about by men, but in dealing with it we can't just say 'stupid men' and ignore the reasons it occurs. It's not justified in any way shape or form but the simple fact remains if you are less responsible for yourself than you are more likely to be a victim. Same with burglary. If you leave your windows open you're more likely to get burgled. You could use the same argument. Except, it doesn't have the punchy 'Let's stop making women adapt to a men's world' sound bite. I think empathy and culture are needed, along with respect. They go hand in hand.
    .


    OMG I hate this analogy. Comparing leaving your windows open to leaving your body open is just a smokescreen. the two are not comparable. You are basically suggesting that if a woman puts herself in an unsafe situation, dresses in a certain way, or has a few drinks then that can be a reason why she was raped?

    The reason for rape is not the way women fail to protect themselves.

    Oh - and also - you object to the 'all men are rapists' idea and yet you are basically suggesting that women be wary of all men just incase. Which is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    byny wrote: »
    J - if rape is natural (Or at least not un-natural) why is it that most men don't?

    Ask that question again in an anarchist society.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    more men would, most men wouldn't - even in an anarchist society. My brother wouldn't (I can say that hand on heart).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not convinced all men are potential rapists, but I do think many men who would never think about dragging a woman of the street at knife point, would rape a woman who had 'led them on', especially whilst drunk (both the man and woman). The problem is that many of these men just wouldn't accept that they were rapists (she wanted it really... she was a prick tease... you can't go half way and then say stop).

    The advert aims to change that perception.

    Whatever you do there are always going to be some men who rape women, but at least some of rapes can be prevented by better education...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not convinced all men are
    Whatever you do there are always going to be some men who rape women, but at least some of rapes can be prevented by better education...



    what if part of that education is encouraging women to think of all men as potential rapists?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ask that question again in an anarchist society.

    Do you mean an anarchist society or a society in a state of anarchy?

    In Bosnia rape was definetly more widespread than it was in Hampstead, but even then it was committed by a minority, others looked on by approvingly, others looked on by neutrally and others looked on by in disgust, but couldn't do much about it...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but even then it was committed by a minority,

    British and American soldiers?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »


    Are you just making this up as you go along?



    It's not justified in any way shape or form but the simple fact remains if you are less responsible for yourself than you are more likely to be a victim. Same with burglary. If you leave your windows open you're more likely to get burgled.
    I find it offensive you feel rape is what constitutes a 'man's world' or what men would have in their ideal world. And I think this is sometimes a prevalent view that all men are rapists (also referring to your comment about men subconsciously wanting to rape). I don't believe we live in a 'man's world', although that's a different argument altogether and we shouldn't change the debate about rape adverts into the oh so typical 'men vs. women' debate.

    You may be more likely to be a victim if you are putting yourself in a dangerous situation but in no way should it affect the case or be blamed on the woman. I think it is dangerous territory to even consider how the woman was clothed, where she was at the time. It has no bearing whatsoever because rape can happen anywhere to anyone. Rape is about power- not how short someone's skirt is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In Bosnia rape was definetly more widespread than it was in Hampstead, but even then it was committed by a minority, others looked on by approvingly, others looked on by neutrally and others looked on by in disgust, but couldn't do much about it...

    Yes, but everyone involved had originally come from a society where rape is probably considered the worst crime imaginable. Of course people who have grown up in a relatively stable society will be unlikely to commit rape. My understanding is that in a tribal situation though, it is a very common weapon of war.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    byny wrote: »
    British and American soldiers?

    Bosnia was one of the main examples of rape being used as a weapon of war - but in no way by British and American soldiers. Serbian troops were encouraged, actively, to carry out rapes.

    There's plenty of other examples - such as the rape of Nanking in 1937, the estimated 200,000 women raped in the Bagladeshi war for independence in 1971.

    However the Bosnia conflict is held up as an example because of the part it played in ethnic cleansing. Women were raped to 'Serbianise' their future children. It was also why the Pakistani troops raped so many women in Bangladesh.

    There are striking examples of occupying forces being involved in an increase in rape - such as in Japan following the second world war. The examples of Bosnia, Darfur, Nanking and others in the 20th and 21st century are different though. These mass rapes of women and children are deliberate, enforced military choices designed to humiliate and destroy cultures and resistance.

    And without the UN peace keeping troops, when they were sent in, the problem would have been much worse - American and UK troops prevented further problems when they were eventually deployed, they didn't increase it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's gone on for as long as man has existed. I mean look at the Old Testament of the Bible ffs. I'm not sure exactly how it relates to rape as we know it in this country though. Presumably the other motive of rape tends to be for a man to exert and maintain dominance over a woman, which would explain why the vast majority occur in pre-existing relationships. Even if the relationship is only a few hours old, there seems to be this idea that it is somehow a promise of something more. And rape in marriage wasn't even recognised until recently, and still isn't in some countries. I suspect child abuse has a similar cause, especially when you consider that only 20% of child abusers are actually paedophiles in the sense that they are physically attracted to children.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No - no group that studies warfare behaviour believes this is the same thing. Rape has always occured as part of war and as part of occupation, systematic rape as a weapon of war is regarded as something new. It's like saying that war has always killed people, so what's so new about the Holocaust?

    The post wasn't relevant to this debate though, it was just intended to clear up the comment made by Byny, since for obvious reasons Flashman had deleted his initial reply. So let's not labour the point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    There are striking examples of occupying forces being involved in an increase in rape - such as in Japan following the second world war.
    There's another example before the Second World War. I'm not 100% certain of my history here, so bear with me. If I remember correctly from my college days, I was told that the Nazis used to have what were nicknamed as "breeding camps", and there were numerous cases of soldiers randomly having sex with women to help Hitler achieve his aim of increasing the birth rate of Aryan children. Is that true? And if so, how many of those women actually consented to have sex with these men?

    As for the topic of rape adverts, I've no problem with raising awareness, as long as it doesn't peddle to stupid lines such as "all men are rapists, beware" and other such nonsense.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    No - no group that studies warfare behaviour believes this is the same thing. Rape has always occured as part of war and as part of occupation, systematic rape as a weapon of war is regarded as something new. It's like saying that war has always killed people, so what's so new about the Holocaust?

    To me that just sounds like the recognition and organisation of something that has been occuring for years. It has happened in tribal warfare for millennia. The US army, for example, just takes basic male coalitionary violence, and uses advanced training to impliment it more effectively, and on a massive scale. The holocaust is the same thing. The rounding up and systematic execution of an entire tribe of people isn't anything new, just the methods, scale and organisation have changed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The SS raped Jewish women...

    I doubt if that was anything to do with continuing the Aryan race.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not the reason being it - it's the systematic use that's different. Soldiers who raped before may have been encouraged to be violent due to their training, that's very different from being ordered to line up a village of muslim women and rape them one by one. There's no evidence of soldiers being trained on how to rape en mass until recent centuries.

    But agin - sorry for the diversion - back to the adverts eh?
Sign In or Register to comment.