Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

Secularism and Islam

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I was wondering how Muslims reconcile the two. From what I understand (although it's very possible I'm mistaken) Islam doesn't really provide for the separation of church and state. But clearly, given the huge number of westerners who are practicing Muslims, people have made the two work. I'm just wondering what the reasoning behind it is.

Sort of a broad question, I was watching this series on youtube by Ummah Films and it got me wondering.

Comments

  • Saeed MSaeed M Posts: 270 The Mix Regular
    Personally, I've never found making the two work together a problem. I found that my faith helped me concentrate in my studies and I think a lot of people I know would say the same.

    Knowing that I shouldn't force my beliefs on to anyone is probably the most important thing. If people ask me my beliefs then I'll explain, and listen to theirs too. Otherwise, they are free to live as they wish as long as they let me do the same (all within the confines of the law, of course).

    I haven't seen or heard of the series of films that you've mentioned, so can't really comment on them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But clearly, given the huge number of westerners who are practicing Muslims, people have made the two work

    Although, clearly a lot also haven't. (As displayed such events as the behaviour of many Muslims during the cartoon 'controversy.') Or the beliefs that many Muslims still hold today towards Salman Rushdie. Even 'moderate' Muslims like Cat Stevens have said they want Rushdie killed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Also by the number who call for an Islamic State.

    However, there a numerous examples of those who do make it work...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Turkey is a good example of a country attempting to combine the two. I think many Western Muslims realise that the world is very different to when their religion was founded and have a pragmatic view to maintaining and practising their faith in a modern world.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Although, clearly a lot also haven't. (As displayed such events as the behaviour of many Muslims during the cartoon 'controversy.') Or the beliefs that many Muslims still hold today towards Salman Rushdie. Even 'moderate' Muslims like Cat Stevens have said they want Rushdie killed.

    Neither do Christians, most American Christians say they are moderate, but bombing of abortion clinics, or hatred towards those who support evolutionism, contradicts this.

    Religion is dangerous if taken too seriously. It infilicts and holds back the work of the state, and science. It is a set of guidlines in my opinion, on how to live your life - not something to be taken 100% all of the time. It should definatley NOT result in violence, or the holding back of eduction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    Neither do Christians, most American Christians say they are moderate, but bombing of abortion clinics, or hatred towards those who support evolutionism, contradicts this.

    That's just media sensationalism. On the whole the American public is pretty far towards the center when it comes to the abortion issue. There are however some very well funded and vocal groups on either extreme.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    Neither do Christians, most American Christians say they are moderate, but bombing of abortion clinics, or hatred towards those who support evolutionism, contradicts this.

    How many people have bombed abortion clinics or called for the bombing of abortion clinics?

    And how many people were out burning copies of Rushdie's Satanic Verses? How many were protesting outside Danish embassies worldwide during the cartoon 'controversy'?

    There is a pretty big difference between having some odd creationist ideas and demanding an author be murdered for allegedly depicting Muhammad negatively.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    How many people have bombed abortion clinics or called for the bombing of abortion clinics?

    And how many people were out burning copies of Rushdie's Satanic Verses? How many were protesting outside Danish embassies worldwide during the cartoon 'controversy'?

    There is a pretty big difference between having some odd creationist ideas and demanding an author be murdered for allegedly depicting Muhammad negatively.

    ... there have been many situations comparable. Teachers of Evolutionism being threatened etc.

    Islam is just having it's little rowdy time like the Christians did ages ago when we crusaded round the world killing and conquering. Who knows... 2200 might be a Bhuddist crusade!

    Religions come and go from power... we won't change it until we grow past religion IMHO. (MY OPINION OK?) Once we are past it... then... we can all settle down and get on. Sadly, I doubt i'll live to see this. Unless I live become a vampire.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    Islam is just having it's little rowdy time like the Christians did ages ago when we crusaded round the world killing and conquering.

    That's the key though - it was ages ago when people had very little understanding of science, nature, life etc. Somehow, I don't think that militant Islamists care about reality so they are going to be very hard to stop.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Teagan wrote: »
    That's the key though - it was ages ago when people had very little understanding of science, nature, life etc. Somehow, I don't think that militant Islamists care about reality so they are going to be very hard to stop.

    And the militant Christians you think REALLY cared? Whenever someone TRIED to increase our understanding they killed or imprisoned them.

    Religion is, tradionally, and still today in the hardcore groups, totally against science.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    Religion is, tradionally, and still today in the hardcore groups, totally against science.

    Christain countries have learned to separate Church and State, some Muslim countries haven't. It's a problem that has to be addressed.

    There's a difference with having a country with some Christain nuts and a state that endoreses fundamentalism!
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Christain countries have learned to separate Church and State, some Muslim countries haven't. It's a problem that has to be addressed.

    There's a difference with having a country with some Christain nuts and a state that endoreses fundamentalism!

    There is. Christian countries haven't learned at all. If they were a Christian country, we'd be a fundementalist state.

    It's the removal of Christianity from the running that changes this. The majority of hte the population is Christian - yes - that doesn't make it a Christian country. Because those running it are not running it in a Christian manner.

    The seperation of state and religion means it is a country - noi longer a religious country, with state religion. This is one of hte most important things.

    TBH, Iran is going to slowly let go of its Islamist approach. They are advancing well sofar - there are many non-Islam believers there - many people off all kinds there - even Black Americans now. I think once Mr. Wassisname goes, it'll get better.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    And the militant Christians you think REALLY cared? Whenever someone TRIED to increase our understanding they killed or imprisoned them.

    Religion is, tradionally, and still today in the hardcore groups, totally against science.

    As I say, that was then. I don't believe that the large majority of Christians today would ever go back to the way things were once done because, for instance, the church used to take advantage of the fact that most people were illiterate to maintain its stranglehold but now that almost everyone can read, they know what the Bible really says about forgiveness, tolerance etc
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Teagan wrote: »
    As I say, that was then. I don't believe that the large majority of Christians today would ever go back to the way things were once done because, for instance, the church used to take advantage of the fact that most people were illiterate to maintain its stranglehold but now that almost everyone can read, they know what the Bible really says about forgiveness, tolerance etc

    ... And I highly doubt the Church would have let things change if they had thier way.

    If they REALLY believed what the Bible says, there wouldn't be a problem. They'd approve of Birth Control, Abortion, freedom of speech and tolerate other religions. Same with Islam. But they don't. Religion is generally speaking, a tool used for evil. Hence the problem. The problem being the organised groups religion forms, and that one arsehole takes control and ruins it for everyone.

    Remove the hierarchy (Which, incidently, Jesus preached against) and there wouldn't be a problem.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    Religion is, tradionally, and still today in the hardcore groups, totally against science.

    I don't quite agree with this statement, i don't have very much knowledge of either old or new testaments, but i can comment on Islam and the Qur'an. Both of which encourage and teach science. One example being verses in the Qur'an which explain fetal development, also it was an Arab/Muslim who first described pulmonary circulation (Ibn Al Nafis) and Ibn Sina who wrote a number of books on the subject of medicine.
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Christain countries have learned to separate Church and State, some Muslim countries haven't. It's a problem that has to be addressed.

    One possible reason Muslim countries don't seperate religion and state is because the Qur'an is written to be a guide to life to some extent. It covers all aspects of life, from simple everyday things to a whole law by which Muslims live by. It may not be for everyone, but to the majority of predominantly Muslim populations its as much like living in accordance with state laws. Islam is not simply just a religion, it encompasses a whole way of life....a full code of conduct for every possible situation, hence why a lot of Muslim countries don't separate religion and state.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Amira wrote: »
    One possible reason Muslim countries don't seperate religion and state is because the Qur'an is written to be a guide to life to some extent.

    So is the Bible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    So is the Bible.
    I mentioned not having much knowledge of the Bible or Torah which is why i didn't comment on either, but as i said...it works for the vast majority of muslims so governments think why change what isn't broken.

    In Dubai there is also another court, the civil court which non-muslims are taken to...so it isn't a case of we force what we believe on non-muslims.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Christain countries have learned to separate Church and State, some Muslim countries haven't. It's a problem that has to be addressed.

    There's a difference with having a country with some Christain nuts and a state that endoreses fundamentalism!

    Couldn't agree more.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    So is the Bible.

    Was going to say that. ALL religions are a guide to life, and the Holy Books are to be taken as such.

    And yes, the Qur'an does encourage science. You could take the Bible to encourage it, it makes Human existence easier and quality of life better. People don't die of colds and old age at 30 these days.

    BUT both Christian and Islamic groups seem to be against it. Religion being hipocritical socker? Nope. Organised religion has been making profits off it's subjects for years, despite this blatantly being against the preechings.

    Got to keep the high up holy men with loads of dosh and a luxury car I guess. How else can they guarantee an enjoyable afterlife?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Religion is fine, as long as it remains a personal thing. The second it starts to become part of the state, it is seeking to control those who don't follow that particular belief system. The state naturally does that to some degree anyway (whilst trying to ensure that the majority of people can still live according to their belief system), but the difference is that religion seems to have different rules with regards to having to justify itself logically and scientifically. That is why it's dangerous for religion to be in any way involved in state matters, and why every single example of religious beliefs being the blueprint for the state has resulted in gross violations of human rights (not exclusively religion, obviously, but that's hardly justification).

    Oh, and don't think we're free of it in this country either, when you have unelected members of the Church of England being able to directly influence decisions by having a seat in the House of Lords. But then it's scandalous that anyone should have that power.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    Was going to say that. ALL religions are a guide to life, and the Holy Books are to be taken as such.

    Does anyone else think that the guy who came up with scientology was just making a satirical point about religion?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Does anyone else think that the guy who came up with scientology was just making a satirical point about religion?

    I suspect it was more to do with his alleged fondness for those rectangular tickets with a printed $ sign on them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seeker wrote: »
    I suspect it was more to do with his alleged fondness for those rectangular tickets with a printed $ sign on them.

    Nah, if that was really your aim, I don't reckon you'd actually state that the best way to make money is to start a religion. I think he said that, knowing people would pick up on it later. I think the money was a nice bonus. That's my conspiracy theory anyway.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Nah, if that was really your aim, I don't reckon you'd actually state that the best way to make money is to start a religion. I think he said that, knowing people would pick up on it later. I think the money was a nice bonus. That's my conspiracy theory anyway.

    He wanted to make money. I don't think he was being satirical or he'd have used the money to do something daft. Like build a 200 foot concrete phallus.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    IMHO:
    Religion itself, used for personal beliefs only, can be a very good thing.
    "Organised" religion == bad thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    He wanted to make money. I don't think he was being satirical or he'd have used the money to do something daft. Like build a 200 foot concrete phallus.

    Or turn John Travlota straight? :p
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Or turn John Travlota straight? :p

    Even with that much cash.... :no:

    I'd make a 200ft statue of me with lasers instead of eyes and it'd breath fire.:hyper:
Sign In or Register to comment.