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how much longer can you defend the indefensible?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pnj: You know full well that the Bush administration had set out to go to war. The diplomatic process was ruined when the coalition countries in the security council decided to give up on the UN route........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by monocrat
    I've never defended Iraq here so I don't know what moroccan roll is on about.

    I think that the war is wrong and unjust and a diplomatic solution must be sought.
    please forgive me mono! i've gotten you confused there with someone else. i'll remove your name from my axis of evil list. it should have read murph the surf.
    talk about friendly fire aye!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here are some of the opposing views on the legal argument:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2847929.stm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Excellent article. I for my part can see no legitimacy to the legal twisting of prior resolutions aimed specifically at the situation pertaining to the invasion of Kuwait as grounds for ursurping state v. state jurisdiction from the control of the UN. The resolutions specifically charge the Security council as a whole with the decision making and enforcement of the process and not individual member states thereof.

    To charge ahead as B & B have done simply because they could not tolerate the slower route of containment and verification is a precedent which will undoubtedly lead to greater chaos on the world stage.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Still nothing definitive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Definitive is an elusive concept in legal interpretation. I take the legal as merely one part of the much broader illegitimacy of this whole aggression.

    Its hardly surprising that those legal counsels which argue for legality are by and large representive of the governments who have already committed themselves to invading. Those against reflect the much broader internationalist view centering upon the UN's sole jurisdiction in this matter.

    Hardly surprising that those who have contravened the UN's mechanisms and collective will should scramble to justify themselves.

    If it were even remotely possible I would be delighted to see these leaders dragged to the Hague for life sentences.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Definitive is an elusive concept in legal interpretation.

    You sounded pretty definitive when you stated that the US was already in breach of international law. :dunno:

    Personally I can see that its a very hard subject and until the UN gives its own opinion then I wont be convinced either way as I am not a lawyer specialising in international law.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh I am definitive about my perspective on the matter, but I was referring to what I perceived to be your requirement for a decisive legal opinion. Given that there are two sides that will, as you say, leave it to the UN to confront.

    I should think though that the UN stands by its charter and judging by the tone adopted by the Sec Gen I suspect their view falls on the side of illegality. Not that the US/UK leadership will pay it any more notice than they did these past months.

    The line in Washington is fairly clear, give the public the charade they need and then go ahead with whatever we plan to do anyways.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I love when old Europe tries to sound law abiding and moral....while making a buck off of UN resolutions...right down to the bank that handles the food for oil program is French.

    Al Qaeda is giving advise via the Internet to Iraqis on fighting Americans and the threat level is up in America regarding Al Qaeda because we're at war with Iraq. Now why would America think there's a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda?

    The truth is, to be competitive, some countries in Europe want to stack the deck regarding environmental issues, sanctions against Iraq and even allowing Al Qaeda to attack America...because the attack would make us weaker. And that's Old Europe's goal.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet

    The truth is, to be competitive, some countries in Europe want to stack the deck regarding environmental issues, sanctions against Iraq and even allowing Al Qaeda to attack America...because the attack would make us weaker. And that's Old Europe's goal.
    you realy should be on medication. locked away maybe. if your fathers responsible for this kind of talk maybe we should call the cruelty people. is this a cry for help? is this accepted as normal in america? your frightening me!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    And that's Old Europe's goal.

    Old europe?

    Is that a new soundbyte or something? I keep hearing that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No that was a demonstration some time back by Rumsfeld as to the neanderthilic intelligence quotient of this current US administration.

    MR, I share your sentiments. If i were pnj's father id disown him as seriously disturbed. How said for a man who is probably a decent father to have to listen to such utter misconceptions of the world on a daily basis.

    But perhaps life will shake him out of his delusions if he ever manages to venture outside his safe little beachfront world and bothers to educate himself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Old europe?

    Is that a new soundbyte or something? I keep hearing that.

    It is because some European countries (towards the east mainly) such as Bulgaria and the Czech Republic support the US, whereas Germany and France are against the US stance.

    Rumsfeld labelled them new and old to give the US public a convenient enemy (iraq ain't good enough)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As well as several references to the Nazi past of Germany- I kid you not- , calls at all levels for a boycott of French products in America, and many tasty insults such as calling the French 'surrender monkeys', 'cowards', 'friends of terrorists' and other such jewels. This was coming not just from the inbred trailer park rednecks, but by newsmen and other TV figures and politicians. All because these two countries dared to disagree with the Great Master and its plans for war.

    I'll tell you Balddog, you were extremely lucky to have been away and blissfully unaware of all this. We've had to hear things from the US in the last few weeks that were more reminiscent of an evil fascist dictatorship than a supposedly democratic and fair country. Very nasty indeed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Our joyous govt have been at it too, Blair and Straw practically blamed France for starting the war:eek: absolutely mad........

    "It is not helpful for France to maintain a line of abuse. It is time to stop exchanging insults and to get on with the business of defeating Saddam Hussein and ensuring Europe speaks with one voice in future on the great issues of terror and tyranny."

    Dennis McShane - Minister for Europe
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    True, true. "Credit" to the US government where it's due, they haven't been the only ones making insulting and pathetic remarks about France.

    Like you say Toadborg, the British government accusing France of starting the war is utter madness. A bit like Jack the Ripper blaming the police for the murders he carried out.

    Hell, I'm changing my avatar again!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    As well as several references to the Nazi past of Germany- I kid you not- , calls at all levels for a boycott of French products in America, and many tasty insults such as calling the French 'surrender monkeys', 'cowards', 'friends of terrorists' and other such jewels. This was coming not just from the inbred trailer park rednecks, but by newsmen and other TV figures and politicians. All because these two countries dared to disagree with the Great Master and its plans for war.

    I'll tell you Balddog, you were extremely lucky to have been away and blissfully unaware of all this. We've had to hear things from the US in the last few weeks that were more reminiscent of an evil fascist dictatorship than a supposedly democratic and fair country. Very nasty indeed.

    But to be fair, the french, and other euro countries, including elements in the UK, are calling for boycotts of US products and companies....the insults are also as much a weapon of the anti-war as the pro-war.

    I didnt miss all the coverage, i had access to quite a few news channels over in Aus...Unfortunately I had the misfortune to tune into Foxnews a few times.....and quite frankly, it scared the shit out of me. Some of their contributors and their editorial discussion sections were insane.....Now im right wing and pro-war but some of the stuff they were saying was ridiculous..

    Ive gotta say that the whole situation with france and germany is really making the US look bad..I mean freedom fries...oh god.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If the French and other countries are now calling for boycotts of American products, it is only on retaliation for the unprovoked and utterly disgusting boycotts and insults the US had called for first when they discovered a couple of countries had dared to disagree with it. From restaurants everywhere changing the name French fries to 'Freedom' fries (including the canteen at Congress) to perfectly xenophobic insults, to boycotts of everything French from wine to cheese... coupled with threats to move the US bases away from Germany as a punishment for voicing its concerns about the US push for war...it has been a very sorry spectacle indeed.

    So after being called (amongst other things) Nazis, cowards or surrender monkeys and being made the target of boycotts and measures destined to hurt their economies, I can't blame the French, the Germans and anyone else who is sickened by this disgusting fascist behaviour for starting a boycott of their own.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So the french are boycotting US products in retaliation for boycotts and not because of their opposition to the war? Seems a little unfair on the french.

    If the french can boycott, the US has the right to boycott..Although personally I think they are both being bloody stupid and childish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    If the french can boycott, the US has the right to boycott..Although personally I think they are both being bloody stupid and childish.

    The sentence should the other way round since it was the Americans who started it- and without any reason other than breathtaking ignorance and stupidity (of those participating in the boycotts, not America as a whole). But I agree that descending into boycott wars is rather stupid and people everywhere should refrain from doing it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Was it the Americans who started it? Ive not seen anything that details it that much so ill take your word for it..Although given the past history of the french and their fondness for boycotts, it does surprise me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You both already know this. The truth is the Western economies are so integrated, any boycotte hurts everyone. Like some economist said in Germany: if the Germans boycotte coke, they are hurting themselves. The products are produced in Germany using local ingredients.

    But you can't blame American tourists from staying away from countries where people are telling them to go home...as has been reported in France and Germany.

    Regarding the bases, Aladdin I think loyalty should be rewarded. Also, if Germany wants to be like Switzerland, it isn't right for the US to have troops there. Keeping our troops there might please right wing groups/politicians, but it doesn't seem like the majority of Germans want it. It's only right to listen to them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,921193,00.html

    (guess where this article is from?) Interesting comment on the botcott business and why the focus may be on France and not the others........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Excellent article Toad.

    Yes, sadly the most vociferously xenophobic in my country are also the least cultured in any sense of the word. What makes it worse is that with Bush being the symbolic champion of the non-thinking knee jerk faction of the population, this is what the media shows the nation. Any critical and rational questioning of the administration's lies and deceit is ominously absent, but when people wake up to the reality of snowballing domestic decline and the administration which exacerbated it with its restoration of runaway budget deficits, the backlash will stun such neanderthals with its revelations.

    At that point don't be surprised if we see all the flag wavers doing an abrupt about face, at least those who don't bury their heads in the sand out of shame for there ignorant and arrogant behaviour.

    Let us pray that the revelations come quickly though so as to preempt any further domestic and international damage this corrupt and shortsighted administration has planned.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do many Americans actually identify with their German heritage?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I still find it amusing that the American argument that the French should help the Americans in a war is that the Americans helped the French when they were invaded by the Nazis.
    It has to be asked: by virtue of this fact, is Germany equally expected to start bombing America & Co since it was attacked by them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do many Americans actually identify with their German heritage?

    Yes Toadborg. Most people say I'm a (country name) American. And, German Americans make up the largest group in America. After that it's Irish Americans. There's German festivals...especially around Octoberfest.
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