Home Politics and Debate
Come and join our Support Circle, every Tuesday, 8 - 9:30pm! Limited spaces available! Sign up here
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

how much longer can you defend the indefensible?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
whowhere, pnj, murph etc ...how much longer are you going to defend what is increasingly becoming obviously a dishonest and corrupt regime? the corruption. the lies. the forged paperwork. the double standards.
this can no longer be about left right and centre polotics. this is about what we are seeing daily. being fed daily. what is being exposed daily. from the fact that the invasion of afghanistan was planned befgore 9/11. lifting "proof" off the internet. forging documents related to obtaining nuclear materials in africa. you all know the list by now for gods sake!
will any of you be honest enough to hold your hands up at some point and admit to being duped?
people supported hitler because he was providing employment and rebuilding the country. he was instilling pride and patriotism back into his people. they turned a blind eye when the jews started dissapearing. then the comunists. then the writers etc.
please wake up and have the courage to admit that your loyalty and trust has been betrayed before the damage done is irepairable!
sadam hussien would have been our best weapon against alqueda if we had behaved decently toward the iraqi people.
in "freeing" the people of iraq we are leaving them without food and water! we are destoying their cities! their places of employment and education. their places of leisure.
whiskey has gone up four fold in the bars of iraq in the last 48hrs!
please see the reality that is threatening us all.
«1

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I support the US and Ive not been duped :dunno:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    I support the US and Ive not been duped :dunno:
    if you find you have been baldog then please stand up and be counted. it takes courage.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll

    if you find you have been baldog then please stand up and be counted. it takes courage.

    Oh dont worry...Ill happily admit I was wrong and duped but as yet, ive not seen anything to suggest I have been.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Oh dont worry...Ill happily admit I was wrong and duped but as yet, ive not seen anything to suggest I have been.
    not the forged documents re saddam trying to obtain nuclear material? not the lifting of a students thesis from the internet and passing it to you as cia "inteligence? not the double standards regarding prisoners? not the rest of the list?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    I support the US and Ive not been duped :dunno:
    Check me on this one:
    You support the US stance on the war on Iraq etc., yet you believe that you have not at any point been duped.
    In other words you believe that the American government has not lied, told half-truths, or covered anything up in the past 18 months, specifically relating to Iraq, Al Quaeda etc.
    Therefore you believe the following:
    • The war has nothing to do with oil in Iraq
    • America has never mistreated, or had part in the mistreatment of, prisoners of war, or prisoners who should be treated as prisoners of war under the Geneva convention to which America has subscribed, and therefore camp X-ray does not exist, or treats its captives humanly.
    • No civillians would die in the attacking of Iraq, or at least the civillian casualties would be minimized as far as possible, despite the fact that America was going to attack major cities in Iraq
    • America has a fully thought out plan to re-stabilise Iraqi government in a way that will work successfully, ie not a puppet government or an enforced 'democracy', both of which have been proven to be unsuccessful in every instance where they have been attempted...


    ...The list goes on. I'm sure MR and friends have a lot more examples to add to this list.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im not denying that the US has done some of those things, im just saying that Ive not bought into them all. Personally I take everything that any govt or politician says with a hell of a lot of salt.

    Me_and,

    Your points..

    1 - Yes it does.
    2 - Yes, they have.
    3 - Too many will die
    4 - Im sure they have some plans but not enough for my liking.

    I still support the war at this time. Incidentally I didnt support it until recently.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    Im not denying that the US has done some of those things, im just saying that Ive not bought into them all. Personally I take everything that any govt or politician says with a hell of a lot of salt.

    Me_and,

    Your points..

    1 - Yes it does.
    2 - Yes, they have.
    3 - Too many will die
    4 - Im sure they have some plans but not enough for my liking.

    I still support the war at this time. Incidentally I didnt support it until recently.
    So despite the fact that you know and accept that America has lied to you, and that you don't support the decisions they are making, you still support the American government?
    I'm not even going to try to argue... ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes..

    governments lie..ALL governments lie.

    I know the US govt lies and manupulates but I dont believe they are as evil as some would have us believe.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    Yes..

    governments lie..ALL governments lie.

    I know the US govt lies and manupulates but I dont believe they are as evil as some would have us believe.
    Fair point.
    So since everyone steals something at some point in their lives, however small, it's OK for me to break into your house, steal everything you have, and use your kitchen worktop for a toilet, and you won't have a problem with that either?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Me_and
    Fair point.
    So since everyone steals something at some point in their lives, however small, it's OK for me to break into your house, steal everything you have, and use your kitchen worktop for a toilet, and you won't have a problem with that either?

    Lying and manipulation is not illegal, nor is it as serious to me as crimes against me personally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not evil per se, although evil has its degrees as well, but more corrupt and insidious actually.

    Yet BD, choosing not believe that the US gov is evil is not the same as supporting them in the face of clearly revealed lies and spin. Theyve shown how desperately they wanted war by using every contrivance in the book, which after being shown to be lacking integrity they simply disregarded international convention (which they themselves will be the first to call for when they themselves are in dire political straights) and started the attack anyways.

    To support this is to say you believe that their ends arent just as suspect.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When those lies reult in greater potential global security threat and regional destabilisation, they are indeed illegal in terms of international law.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Lying and manipulation is not illegal, nor is it as serious to me as crimes against me personally.
    baldog, if you know they are lying to you, cheating on you, forging documents and stealing things off the internet, killing and destroying in your name, (trying to keep the list short)what is it that gets your support and why?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    When those lies reult in greater potential global security threat and regional destabilisation, they are indeed illegal in terms of international law.

    Thats as may be, but it is not yet the case. What happens as a result of this war has yet to be seen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The very means by which this war was launched already contravenes international law dear BD. You take too much for granted on this issue it appears.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    baldog, if you know they are lying to you, cheating on you, forging documents and stealing things off the internet, killing and destroying in your name, (trying to keep the list short)what is it that gets your support and why?

    Basically I believe the world is a better place with the US govt in it and that in the context of this war, the end will justify the means.

    Im not one who holds the US up as a beacon of virtue, I know they are as corrupt and manipulative as governments come. I know that their motives in this war are not as they have said and I know they are not selfless, but I also know that they are not totally selfish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    The very means by which this war was launched already contravenes international law dear BD. You take too much for granted on this issue it appears.

    I dont patronise people on this board Clandestine, Id appreciate if you would try not to patronise me :)

    Could you point out which part of international law this contravenes and how it does so./
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Basically I believe the world is a better place with the US govt in it and that in the context of this war, the end will justify the means.

    Im not one who holds the US up as a beacon of virtue, I know they are as corrupt and manipulative as governments come. I know that their motives in this war are not as they have said and I know they are not selfless, but I also know that they are not totally selfish.
    ?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    ?

    You will have to put words alongside the punctuation if you want me to answer the question mate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've never defended Iraq here so I don't know what moroccan roll is on about.

    I think that the war is wrong and unjust and a diplomatic solution must be sought.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes i was wondering about that M.Roll, mono has never been in the pro-war camp to my knowledgre.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There was no patronising BD. Merely a comment of how willing you evidently are to overlook the roster of duplicity (not only in this particular crisis but in the long history of crises arising out of US foreign policy or being further aggravated thereby) and still condone this invasion. Especially when it was perfectly reasonable to maintain or even increase the intensity of the inspection and containment process to achieve what the specifically stated goal of the international community was, namely the disarming of iraq.

    The unilateral will of Washington to go further than this with the ousting of the head of a sovereign state (as nasty as he is) who had not attacked or presented any viable threat to the US nor the UK contravenes the principle of "self defense" as contained in Article 51 of the UN charter and sets a precedent which other world leaders could follow by simply pointing back to the example we have set. Iraq though has every right to defend itself by any means possible now that international convention has been shat upon by Washington. They can't have it both ways.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Addressing me as 'dear' while disputing my point was particularly patronising.

    Do you have anything put out by the UN, or any expert on UN law that supports that claim that this is a breach of the self defence clause, or is it your own interpretation?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    whiskey has gone up four fold in the bars of iraq in the last 48hrs!

    And the horror of war hits home. :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its actually been mentioned numerous times since the US walked away from the table up to the actual launch of the hostilities. Its not merely my opinion. Why not go do a google search for legal discussions on Article 51 in relation to the Iraq invasion?

    Im sure you are equally as capable of finding as much as I could on the net. Other than that would be hardcopy documents which I have no way of posting.

    Here is one link though:

    http://www.lcnp.org/global/Iraqstatemt.3.pdf

    (there is of course a division of legal opinion on the matter as in any great debate)...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Why not go do a google search for legal discussions on Article 51 in relation to the Iraq invasion?

    Oh I have done so..Ive read many articles...but have yet to find a definitate statement from someone in the know.

    Article 51 is dependant on the issue of pre-emptive attack, whether it is legal or not.

    1441 can be said to give the US the go ahead to attack Iraq.

    There is nothing definitive as far as I can tell. Nothing from the UN themselves. Im perfectly happy to admit im wrong if youve seen such a statement.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    1441 contains no concept of the right of unilateral pre-emptive actions. Given that the Iraqi situation lies within the jurisdiction of the UN and not a state v/ state dispute settlement process, the only legal mandate for resumption of military force must rest with the UN.

    Bush may have twisted much in his bid to justify this action but the fact reamins that the aftermath of the PGW put the fate of Iraq in the collective hands of the international community, not the UK nor the US. They jumped the gun and merely wish to exhonerate themselves with moral pontification and fear mongering about non-existent threats.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    French oil deals would never have allowed for a diplomatic solution. The French even watered down what the EU wanted to say about Iraq. The countries you're loyal to caused this war Clandestine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    go back to sleep pnj, youre still clueless as ever.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine

    Still nothing to back those claims though.
Sign In or Register to comment.