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You probably won't get much of a response, last time bluepeta posted was 14th July!!
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"> j9
Yeah but he never backed himself up then
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched - they must be felt with the heart.
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched - they must be felt with the heart.
I go to Warwick Uni. Quite middle class, but better than most of the other top ten uni's in terms of public/private/independent school people versus state school (includes me).
Firstly, there are a shitload of people who get drunk a hell of a lot at Uni. Can't be denied. But fact is that most of the people I know who do that also work more than 60 hours a week at their degree and part time jobs. They get drunk to relax. Then of course, there's the difference between first years and third years (finalists). When they first get there, first years tend to go a bit mental. By the third year, most of them work their ass off to do the best they can.
The other thing is, that people who just get pissed all the way through tend to do much worse than the people who don't. And loads get chucked out as well, and don't come back in any shape or form. Also like ppl have said the whole Loans thang means you really don't want to waste your time here. Most students now come out of Uni 8000 to 15000 pounds in debt.
BTW, as for lazy: what's the most hours you've worked in a week? I run my own business as well as being a finalist and trying to do other stuff, and last year over 1 month I averaged 140 hours a week. As a result I was ill for a while and am now an insomniac and workaholic. But hey, we've all got our faults.
BTW this is my week off. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/wink.gif">
Yeah, I have the same problem with my girlfriend and I.
No, it's you girlfriend who has the problem lol.
j9
Everyone's views have a validity based on their different life journeys. I have worked full-time, done full-time study at Uni and presently I'm doing a masters with the Open University (presently part-time, perhaps going full time next year). So that's where I'm coming from.
Ultimately I believe that with the vast amount of food farmers can now fairly reliably produce, it should be a human right for everyone's basic needs (basic education, food, healthcare and shelter) to be met. If they are met, then in turn people will give back to society. Perhaps through rearing children, managing the economy, studying and discovering new knowledge for mankind etc...
If some people then feel they want to work in a factory and others in front of a computer or study in a library so be it.
Someone suggested we need education for economic growth. I would contest this and point out we also need education for people to consider alternatives to economic growth! Growth to what end? Progress, happiness?
In the UK our basic needs r essentially met and after than it should be the right of the individual to determine how their time in life is spent. I would argue on this basis that virtually-free Education (life-long: institutionalised learning or self-directed) is a right and that if people enjoy working sixty hour weeks to develop a business then so be it - let them get on with it, but that should not be at the expense of people at the lower end of the wage scale not having their basic needs met.
Oh - and I appreciate the contestability of what are 'basic needs', but will ramble another day on that front if u like. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/wink.gif">
Sorry if the argument is not totally coherent and fully explained, but it is late.
bw
Andrew
Revering the Universe, Caring for Nature, Celebrating Life: http://www.pantheism.net
[This message has been edited by AndyD (edited 04-12-2000).]
Homelessness and housing, poverty, malnutrition, etc. are all still big problems in the UK, though it's easy sometimes to overlook them (never mind problems such as child abuse). Loads of related problems e.g. if you're homeless you're excluded from much of the NHS (can't register at a GP's surgery). The problems on this site are the tip of the iceberg (everyone here has inet access); there are people far more disenfranchised by society, so I think it is a bit naive to say people's basic needs are essentially met.
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched - they must be felt with the heart.
But I gotta add my comments...
This whole argument of "if we didn't have students the economy would be in a poor state, so those without a uni education should fuck off". What a load of COCK!
ANYONE can go to university. I mean anyone. Almost anyone can go to a decent uni if their memory is good enough to regurgitate shit onto paper during their a-levels. And if you can't... then take a GNVQ, and you can shit albeit at a constipated rate.
This isn't really a bad thing, but to be honest, going to uni in this day and age, says fuck all about your level of intellect. What it does say is you are motivated (if you get through), willing to work, and have some idea what you are talking about.
However, if you have an ambition, and you can reach it without going to University. Then I see no reason to go. All of my friends are going to Uni. Education seems to be the last thing on the agenda, and good luck to them, wish i could join them sometimes. However i'm following my own career path - the route i chose was high risk and felt a bit more fun.
There is something you maybe should note. Education is a gift - yes. Does the government hand out this gift for YOUR personal satisfaction? No. How can a country maintain a healthy economy. By providing a large stream of trained minds to companies allowing them to maintain their competitive edge. For two brains to be better than one, you have to sing the same song. This is why when you study you'll read the same books. Your minds are synchronised. The government are also relying on something else to keep the economy afloat - innovators. Granted, many of these come from Uni, an alarming proportion do not. And why? To innovate you MUST think differently. This is incredibly hard if you are told what to think. Another huge proportion of innovators are university dropouts, those that felt conflict with the system. These tend to be the people that go on to change the system.
These people musn't be forgotten. After all, these are the people you will be working for when you finish your education. Its your choice. My advice - educate yourself. If you do it well enough, your mind will truly be unique and innovative. Obviously, this is still possible if you go to Uni. But don't accept the rules written in the book, challenge them. Change them.
I have to get up at 7.15 am, don`t finish will 4.30.
I have shitloads of essays, assignments, coursework, not to mention doing stuff around the house and working 18 hours a week.
I don`t party much though, don`t see the point in getting pissed every night if you`re just gonna regret it the next day.
College can be very mentally exhausting, cespecially in the IT course i`m doing which will be worth 3 A-Levels if I pass.
I admit some students do use it as an excuse to get pissed/stoned and not work, but please don`t paint us all with the same brush.
"Honesty is just an excuse for lack of imagination."
I have absolutely no grudge against anyone who works, or whatever. And yeah, some people go to uni, arse about, drink themselves silly, and whatever. Fine. But dont typecast all students like that, a lot (including me) go there to try and get qualifiactions and experiences that will set them up for life.
I also thing that the financial side helps the student come to terms with budgeting, and this is damn important when it comes to later life etc.
Personally I think students ARE hard done by, (okay im scottish, goin to a scottish uni, so im gettin my tuition fees paid by the gov) <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"> but every penny loaned out is paid pack in time, often with interest.
Dont diss people beacuse they want to do something with their lives.
In my opinion that is total crap!! You don't have to have a Uni degree at all to do well. I for example chose not to go to Uni after doing a GNVQ in Business I decided I wanted to get out into the big wide world and start earning some money. I've now been working for 5 years and I am an Accountant for a large charity, get paid shit loads of money and have a very good job. I chose to carry on studying but part time thus giving me the best of both worlds - carrying on with my Education while at the same time gaining work experience and getting paid for it aswell.
To become an Accountant people that have gone to Uni still have to do at least a year of the proffesional Accountancy qualification i.e ACCA/CIMA after their degrees so they are no better off and they have no work experience.
I think the only thing that I missed out on by not going to Uni is the social side of it. But then again my social lifes pretty good anyway as I have the money from working to do pretty much what I want.
So I think the statement that to get anywhere in life you need to have gone to uni is bollox!!
I'm working class myself, so-so salary, I went to college but dropped out and I've been paying taxes since I was 16..
You don't get anywhere in life anymore without a uni degree under your belt and that my friend is a fact.
As mentioned before thats totally BS, these days just because you go to college or Uni for that matter doesn't mean you'll get a job and if you don't doesn't mean you won't make it anywhere... thats the kind of arguement that damages students in general. I left school without many qualifications, dropped out of college to join the army and since then have spent the time sorting myself out, I'm now an IT Systems Support Technician and in my attitude am doing better than quite a few of my mates. Just because I don't have a degree doesn't mean I can't do well for myself, for my age I think I'm doing pretty darn good.
bluepeta may be a tax payer now, but what about when he retires? Then he'll expect US to pay taxes.
At the rate the current govenment is going the NI pension will be abolished by then, thats why all people are expected to take out private pensions these days which pay for themselfs by years of installments.
And in todays world £20,000 isnt a lot of money. Think about where u would be now if u had A-levels and a degree?
This I agree on, personally I know if I'd got my A-Levels and a degree then I'd be earning more than I am now, but just because you have a degree doesn't mean you ever stop learning and if you don't have one doesn't mean you won't get one in the future... the one thing I've certainly learnt is that in todays society you never stop learning, your always expected to continue educating yourself whether thats on-the-job training or qualifications.
So dont call us wasters, we are the future
This I also agree with, students aren't wasters they do work hard, some students do let the name down for others and thats who I sometimes have disagrements with. I suppose people can get the wrong impression reading about how students wax their loan on cars/stereos and clubbing then take out other loans to fund the actual course. From mates of mine (maybe a minority) they certainly do spend a percentage of the loan on spoiling themselfs but everyone deserves some form of congradulation for making it that far, besides they always have to pay it back.
I suppose the only time students bug me, being honest, is those ones who complain openly, frequently and expect special treatment. I understand that students aren't always listened to, but sometimes they get a bit out of hand, especially when they compare themselfs to others working or think they can change the world. This as well is also a minority.
I think why some younger people (U25) can get annoyed is that sometimes students moan how difficult it is for them studying and trying to earn a living and think its easy for those working, which is often not the case.
I know from my own experience that the govenment basically just doesn't really cater for those on a so-so income who live alone and are just above the income support tax bracket. They have to survive on thier own and often hold down several jobs to sustane that property, some jobs also except that individual to study various courses outside of work along with expecting them to learn to drive when they literally have £30 left after all deductions each week, and the govenments just expect you to get on with it.
Maybe that kind of lifestyle could annoy people especially when they hear students forever moaning....
Basically what I've been saying is that yes students aren't wasters and don't always get it easy but then nor do workers of a similar age, however students have more voice (in a workers opinion) then they do... <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">
[This message has been edited by Justin Credible (edited 17-09-2001).]
The Salary I get is no more or no less than the average rate for an Accountant. Just because I work for a charity doesn't mean I should get paid any less than someone working in the Private Sector.
If Charities didn't pay the going rate they would end up having to employ a lower level of staff i.e Graduates with no work experience and no idea of how a business works.
A charity operates the same way any other business does it just doesn't make a profit as its resources are used to assist their cause.
Think about it on another level then, a charity in context is a large non-profit making organisation which is funded by the kindness of the people.
As it has an income it needs accountants and various other departments to look after its finanial stability and structure along with other administrative roles, this isn't no part-time job and it isn't something any run-of-the-mill (excuse the phrase) person could do coming from your average street.
Its a professionals area and they don't come free, these guys need to work full-time and need wages to pay for themselves, they still have to eat, have cars, morgages and pay for their family don't they?
I could hardly see many accountants work for nothing when they could earn say £30k working in the business sector.
.... did you think about it that way? <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">
You sure like your long posts don'tcha? <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif">
I've got a lot to say and a big mouth... heh
*No Comment* <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/wink.gif">
It's just that I never took up a Student loan, I had an overdraft instead and I've been paying it back for 10 years! The most I have ever earned is £13,000. If I'm right in my first assumption I wouldn't have to pay off my student loan (Had I got one) and I'd be £110 better off each month - I might even be able to save for a deposit on a house, or have a kid.
I think all us Ex students/ never been students are only feeling the same way that most students will feel in the future. It's not jelousy but a real concern that students, while taking the high ground when it comes to politics and protests, won't ever know what the real world is like - until they are struggling in it, and the struggle doesn't start until you get a job and start paying for things yourself.
http://bpbfb.tripod.com
There are just as many working people who go out drinking every night and don't do much as there are students in my opinion, just as there are workers who put all their energies into their jobs and those who don't. And the end result in both cases is pretty much the same - those who succeed in university will get their degree, those who fail will get kicked out... Those who succeed in the workplace will get raises and promotions (provided it's a half decent workplace... But I won't get into that 'cause it'll turn into a rant) and those who don't will be fired.
I think it's unfair to look at students as a "race of lazy people" as the word "student" encompasses a whole load of people in different situations, with different backgrounds, working habits, and so on.
Semper ubi sub ubi
I am currently in my second year at uni doing an honours degree in psychology. Although mostly all we did in first year was go out to the union and get wasted, there was still work and assignments to be handed in. Now second year has come, and the shit has hit the fan. The workload has increased dramatically, thus in order to get it done there is no way you are able to go out 7 nights a week, unless you want to flunk out that is.
And, to address your second point of us leaching of the government, we actually need this money to stay alive for the term. Once you have deducted rent, food bills and the dreaded book list allocation, it's amazing that we have enough money to go out at all. And before you accuse me of being a typical student 'moaning on' i am just laying down the facts.
Having said all of this, i love being at uni, and studying a course that may get me into the job i want at the end of all this. I know there are some students who make us look bad with their drunken stupors 24/7 but the majority came here to get an education.
Therefore i can see how we come across, but this really is only the stereotype that you are describing, not actually the way it is.
Oh and by the way, it really seems like you are the one doing all of the whingeing so before you accuse us students of it, take a look at your own letter!!!