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Well I could quite easily argue that today Christmas is a secular argument whatever its roots, using exactly the same argument you've used to dismiss the pagan roots. Okay, so most people don't celebrate the pagan elements any more, but then most people don't celebrate the christian elements either. So if we go on modern celebrations, it's a predominantly secular festival, and if we go on history, it's a mish-mash of various religious and secular traditions from various historical periods. By no definition is it exclusively Christian.
Suits me!
Who alleges it? Examples? Links please.
But I still don't understand how it works with atheism, or exactly what you'd be celebrating then?
There are quite a few books out there which talk about how Christianity has borrowed almost entirely from Pagan religions (most have talked about Hellenic, some Roman, some even about Kemetic Paganism... Although both have a reat deal in common).
You can look at a lot of things, including Pagan symbols being adopted by Christianity, arguably Jesus was an amalgamation of several characters in Pagan mythology (for example, virgin births, miracles, have even heard the term "lamb of God" to have Sumerian roots before Christ), the concept of hell, the eternal soul... Not entirely sure about angels either.
What I mean to say is that Christianity... Just like most other religions are likely to be is a group of borrowed ideas, recycled from other Pagan belief systems.
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There's loads of stuff out there.
i dont believe in any god or anything, still a chance to spend time with family, surely the most important thing
it's a national holiday with religious roots, people in other countries celebrate xmas in different days also - don't stop it being a cultural holiday, and not just in a material sense, which i don't tend to subscribe to
Hit the nail on the head there. Also in other cultures they will have national holidays for religious reasons - you don't have to be of that religion to have the day off!
I think it's such a killjoy spirit to call people enjoying christmas hipocrits because they're not Christian! The meaning behind it is to eat, drink, be merry and spend time with your family. If you don't enjoy such things then rather than say 'But you're not Christian!', go eat humbug pie or something :razz:
It's not really being a killjoy, it's just like with a fair few other people out there, I see Christmas as a capitalist bastardisation of religion. You don't have to go with the flow if it doesn't suit you.
Christianity is a religion.
Christianity is arguably a religion whose story is simply borrowed from earlier Pagan religions... Or at least elements are borrowed, for example, the virgin birth.
This does not mean that Christianity is not a religion. It does not mean that it is a Pagan religion either, but it has borrowed/stolen from Paganism.
Either way, Christmas is still a Christian celebration.
Did anybody watch that program on Christmas day about Christ and how different religions have similarities?
Ah, ok, but you said the Bible - not Christianity. Yes, I would agree with you that much Christian 'doctrine' has been influenced by paganism etc.
Did ya watch the program last night? It was really interesting.
Religious Christianity follows doctrines that are usually not found in the Bible so they are not strictly the same. Christmas, Easter, the status of Mary in the RCC etc are doctrines not based on any biblical scripture.
And yes, I did see it. Very interesting.
I really do refuse to believe that someone would ever complain to a card company for having too many christmas cards.
I don't think anyone has complained, but it's part of the split-personality of christmas. On the one hand, it's got a christian meaning behind it. On the other hand, it's a national holiday that's celebrated by practically everyone whether they're christian or not (i.e. my mate at primary school was hindu and had a mini christmas, but then again I had a mini diwali, multi-culture pressies ftw).
Maybe some people came up with the idea of making it sound slightly more secular so that people who weren't strictly christian didn't have to feel phoney about enjoying the hols
In fact, IIRC the only friends I've had who didn't celebrate christmas were Jewish and Jehova's Witnesses. The latter didn't even celebrate birthdays. I think a lot of the time parents did it for the kids, since it was a thing at school and everyone else was getting presents they might not have wanted them to feel left out.
Certainly I love christmas because it's the one time of the year everyone gets a few days off to wind down and so you can see family from up and down the country. As soon as the summer holidays hit you can bet everyones disappeared to portugal or spain or france for the next 12 weeks. And easter is normally too busy to get anything done.
Presents, food, family - same as most christians.
Stories appear in the media before Christmas about how everyone seems to be away for two weeks. According to one headline in the Daily Mail last week, the business world would "shut down for 16 days". Apparently, people would be finishing work on Friday, December 21st, and not returning until Monday, January 7th. If only that were true! The only people who are away for anywhere near that long would be office workers, and they're probably due back next Wednesday.
In any case, isn't your argument a bit hypocritical, given you're a university student? Let's face it, you lot are off most of the time as it is.
You are going off on a complete tangent here. Most people get some sort of time off over christmas.
Shyboy, I very much doubt that the terms holiday and seasonal greetings are used to soothe peoples guilt of double standards. I think most people have made their peace with the fact that it is nice to gather with family, eat good food and get pissed - its a tradition rather than a religious holiday for most people.
Even many Jews, whilst not celebrating christmas as such eat traditional christmas food together (minus the pork for the majority, and without a tree and exchange of gifts) as a way of taking advantage of the opportunity and kind of a way of being in tune with the rest of society. That said, the celebration as such isn't needed. As there are a million Jewish prominent holidays. Too many, at times.
Agreed.
Christmas these days really has fuck all to do with Christianity.
Hehe, Christopher Hitchens fills half a page of his book naming the various virgin births that happened before Jesus. Quite funny really. He points out that religions like to think of the birth canal as a one way street.
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