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Oh dear...
Skive
Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6528049.stm
From the clips and interviews I saw on the box, the police were severely heavey handed. A saw plenty of people sparked out on the deck being repeatedly stuck on the head with batons.
From the clips and interviews I saw on the box, the police were severely heavey handed. A saw plenty of people sparked out on the deck being repeatedly stuck on the head with batons.
Weekender Offender
Post edited by JustV on
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The Roma fans won't be blameless either, but I think the heavy handedness (rightly or wrongly) should hardly come as a surprise.
Not sure what happened before the game, but during it there were clashes which were awful to watch.
Roma scored, Roma fans ran at united (at least up to the perspex barriers), United fans ran towards the barriers too. Police baton United fans but don't even go into the Roma section... work that out.
Fuckin gtypical. Cue UEFA fine for United, again, and yet again an Italian club will get away scot free... and no-one will say anything to the Rome Police.
NB Just a reminder but Heysel was, in part, cause by the actions of the Roma fans and Police in the previous year's final...
From what I saw on the news, each set of fans ran up to the barriers when they scored. The Roma fans charged, the United fans charged back and then the Roma fans ran back when the police started with the the batons - leaving the United fans at the barriers to get the full on baton treatment.
I don't think anybody now can say one side being worse than another. No need for anybody to throw missiles though, I've been in the middle of a stadium riot like that and once one lot starts then the other lot start and mayhem ensues.
I mean they were beating people on the ground FFS. That happens to one woman over here and there is massive outcry.
The Roma fans ran to the barrier first. The United fans were blocked by police. The Roma fans had no resistance. It's the fault of the police IMO. If they had of done their job properly and patrolled both sides the Roma fans wouldn't have been able to run right up like that, and the United fans wouldn't have reacted.
Ah, didn't know that.
Funny that it was a match between two Italian teams that caused that policeman to die recently and sparked the massive review of security. Yet it's the away fans that get all the scrutiny.
Is it Roma's fault that the police weren't stationed properly? I'm not being sarcastic there, I honestly don't know?
Both clubs should be fined heavily, if Roma are responsible for the security arrangements full stop (rather than the local police force) then a couple of closed door games would be in order too.
Well I'm sure the club, owning the stadium, are at least partly responsible for security arrangements, and would have to liase with the relevant parties to arrange what needs done. Better stewarding and policing could have totally prevented this.
So much for Italian football banning itself from competitions for up to a year to combat their hooliganism problem eh? :rolleyes:
Typical. No surprises about what happened, tragic as it is. Just shows how little we've accomplished since Heysel and how bad hooliganism is in Italy. They'd be good, and I can't believe I'm saying this, to take a leaf out of the English book of how to deal with football hooliganism and start handing out some lifetime bans to some of these fuckers. We have CCTV and cameras in all parts of the ground to be able to identify these shits.
Doubt anything will come of it though... As MoK said, the Italians will blame the English, the English will protest but given their reputation for hooliganism (which nowadays isn't that deserved) but will be penalised regardless. The fact that AC Milan are still in the competition after what they got upto last season just shows how the seedier side of football is dealt with in Italy...
Like that was EVER gonna happen.
And on the subject of the english being penalised, they dont deserve it, its the Italians that should get the book thrown at them! And this is coming from a welshman! Disgusting.
It's a sad indictment that clubs expect trouble when going to Italy (and other places) and just sit by and accept it.
It's funny that it's always the away fans that cause the problems. It's also funny that the same away fans are able to travel to every other country in Europe without causing trouble, yet in Italy, the suddenly turn into mindless thugs. I'm not a fan of banning every Italian club from European football (because that was unfair when it happened in England), but certainly for next season at least, the offending clubs should be kicked out.
It can't be denied that the Italian police can be a bit baton-happy, but there were still quite a number of Man United troublemakers throwing things and ramming the barricades back after Rooney scored. Probably the majority were decent fans caught up in it, but I saw more than a few baseball capped thugs on the news who were giving as good as they were getting.
It's a disgrace what's happening in Italy now, but the Man United fans were told to expect exactly that and not to react - otherwise exactly this would happen and it did. Throwing bottles and missiles back are hardly the actions of innocent fans minding their own business, so United should get heavily fined too.
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
And you can't tar all fans of any football club with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots.
The Lille game is a bad comparison. There was no fan provocation. There was a crush and the fans attempted to climb the barriers (which shouldn't have been there) and the riot police decided to beat some of the fans who scaled the fence. The stadium was unfit for European games.
It's no coincidence that these fans can go to places like Spain, Portugal and Germany, and not have any trouble at all. I think it says alot more about the respective countries rather than the travelling fans.
True, but United fans are hardly damning in their condemnation of the ones who did cause trouble.
It's the usual "It woz them wot dun it" finger pointing at the Italians, without any sort of "I'm ashamed at the part some of the fans of my club played in that, if we hadn't reacted then things might not have got quite so out of hand", but then that's not really the way United fans think, is it?
By hitting the club where it'll hurt them most (their pockets) then hopefully it'll spur them on to make sure tickets for away ties don't get into the hands of scumbags.
Why should they be? There is a clear consensus that the main issue is with the heavy handedness of the Italian police, rather than the petty misdemeanors of a few United fans. I'm sure if you searched hard enough you'd find some quotes from United fans who would criticise the reaction of some of the fans, but it's hardly a pressing concern in the debate. However once again on these boards, someone is looking for self-condemnation from United fans. The amount of times I see "I notice that United fans are hardly damning in their condemnation of....blah blah blah."
Is that the way any fans think, or is it only United fans do tell?
Even if they hadn't of reacted, the Roma fans would have continued to rain missiles down on top of them and taunt them at every opportunity without any resistance from the police. If you provoke people enough, and if they feel victimised due to their lack of protection, they will react.
Sure that's the main issue, but it's not the only issue.
If you don't think throwing missiles at opposition fans is cause for concern (even taking into account the provocation) then you're more blinkered than I thought.
Hardly petty misdemeanours, throwing things at football matches is never acceptable, no matter what the provocation.
When we played Rangers five years ago and there were riots then I was quick to condemn our fans, even though it was the thugs from Rangers that started it.
United fans think everybody (FA/UEFA) is out to get them, and they're never to blame. Lille wasn't their fault, but it's often a case of the boy who cried wolf. Too bloody right United should be heavily fined for this.
United fans did the same when Rooney scored (provoked the Roma fans), so they were hardly innocent bystanders.
You're letting your United bias cloud your judgement here IMO.
If you bothered to read my previous posts you would see I said United fans weren't innocent, but I believe it was the fault of security because of the police's refusal to prevent the provocation by the Roma fans, and their subsequent indiscriminate beating of United fans. IMO the police were ultras in uniform, who were happy to let the United fans suffer intolerable baiting at the hands of the Roma fans. You don't get that fan provocation anywhere else in Europe, and you don't get that kind of policing.
Well aren't you great and I'm sure all your Aberdeen friends were quick to condemn themselves as well, were they, or would they have blamed the Rangers fans? Bit of a difference in the situations though. Your fans weren't indiscriminantly battered by riot police while the Rangers fans looked on laughing, despite them being the ones who provoked the situation. I bet you'd have been singing a different tune about the incident if that had of happened.
No, I'm not. I've accepted the United fans weren't innocent (read it) and I know they foolishly reacted to the baiting by the Roma fans. But I still blame the security and the police for the situation and believe it could have been avoided if the stadium was policed properly, like it is in England and everywhere else United fans go without getting into trouble.
A few coins were thrown from the Rangers support. Hardly starting a riot.
Clearly it did.
Ripping chairs out and throwing them probably didn't help keep the peace either.
And its all kicking off at the Sevilla v Tottenham game now it seems...
Main issue, yes. But we cannot ignore the fact that the Italian police were reacting to something that happened on the United side of the barrier.
We should condemn our own fans for reacting - especially when we know how the Italian police are.
Who's ignoring it? Accordingly we also cannot ignore the fact that the Italian police totally failed to react to something that happened on the Roma side of the barrier, just before that.
I think that's the main problem. The Roma fans behaviour occured before the United fans and was very provocative. The police failed to do anything about it, in fact, they seemed happy to let it continue. Then the first sign of a reaction by United fans and it's all batons and beatings. Ultras in uniform if you ask me.
Of course Manchester United fans were not innocent and should be condemned for responding to the Roma fans' provocation, but the strongest condemnation must be directed towards the riot police, for this surely wouldn't have happened if they weren't so incompetent and biased in how they chose to control the rival sets of fans.
I think that's a fair enough assesment of things.
Apparently the root of this problem is that the Italian police are shit scared of the Ultras movement in Italy. Throw in a few tanked up Northeners and you've got a recepie for trouble.
Anybody see the trouble in Spain tonight? A good few fans fell a down a few rows in the stand, so basically the stadium design was the only thing that stopped lives being lost.