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Not allowed to teach because of their political beliefs.

2

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    dear old blag canna see that for some reason:chin:

    If you care to read my posts, specifically the part where I write "Like you, I am uncomfortable with people being harassed for their political beliefs - historically its been the left who have been the targets.", you'll see that I can see it. But hey, why let something like actually reading posts get in the way of having a go?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    dear old blag canna see that for some reason:chin:

    I think he can, but the BNP are so deserving of being victimised and hounded its hard not to want to do it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I also think its unlikely that a trade union would ballot its members to not work with a communist or a Muslim.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    If you care to read my posts, specifically the part where I write "Like you, I am uncomfortable with people being harassed for their political beliefs - historically its been the left who have been the targets.", you'll see that I can see it. But hey, why let something like actually reading posts get in the way of having a go?
    here we go!
    when i mentioned it applying to muslims and gays ...you said it was comparing apples and oranges.
    i read your bit about being uncomfortable.

    nazi germany ...first they came foir the jews ...then the commies ...then YOU.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    No, your argument is shit. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

    You claim that you believe workers have the right to run their own workplace, which implies you'd be fine with it, but your avoidance of the question demonstrates that you wouldn't. So come on, you either think muslims should be kicked out of work if their union support it democratically or not.

    If not, your argument falls.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I also think its unlikely that a trade union would ballot its members to not work with a communist or a Muslim.
    and i always thought it would be unlikely to happen cas of right wing political beliefs ...so?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    You claim that you believe workers have the right to run their own workplace, which implies you'd be fine with it, but your avoidance of the question demonstrates that you wouldn't. So come on, you either think muslims should be kicked out of work if their union support it democratically or not.

    If not, your argument falls.

    I don't think that a union is likely to vote for that. When and if they do, we can discuss it. There's no point discussing something thats not going to happen is there?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and i always thought it would be unlikely to happen cas of right wing political beliefs ...so?

    Why did you think its unlikely? Unions have a history of antifascist activity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    here we go!
    when i mentioned it applying to muslims and gays ...you said it was comparing apples and oranges.
    i read your bit about being uncomfortable.

    nazi germany ...first they came foir the jews ...then the commies ...then YOU.

    Yes thats right mr, it was trade unions in Nazi Germany going after the jews. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    does luke ever talk about anything but cheap pints on student nights in stoke, and the BNP and immigration?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I don't think that a union is likely to vote for that. When and if they do, we can discuss it. There's no point discussing something thats not going to happen is there?

    That's how the logic of arguments is tested blagsta.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    That's how the logic of arguments is tested blagsta.

    But you're comparing apples and oranges so there is no logic.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yes thats right mr, it was trade unions in Nazi Germany going after the jews. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
    :rolleyes:
    what a fucking akward irrifuckintating little man you are!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :rolleyes:
    what a fucking akward irrifuckintating little man you are!

    Well you are chatting shit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    However, and its a big however, the BNP are a bona fide political party, and it is an incredibly dangerous democratic precedent if we start sacking people because if their political affiliation.

    On balance, much as I loathe the BNP, the witch hunting does concern me, because it sets such a dangerous precedent. Either we have a democracy or we don't, we can't pick and choose what views we want people to have. It'd be great if everyone had morally correct political views, but they don't, and I think the precedent of screening political parties is far more dangerous than a few BNP bigots.

    The council are right to say that it is not a disciplinary offence for him to exercise his democratic right to stand as a candidate for a bona fide political party of his choosing.

    I agree with all of that. Ultimately any employer can't be allowed to discriminate on grounds of someone's personal life, which is what this is.

    I think the potential of a BNP member to cause harm in the classroom might depend on what they were teaching. I'd be very concerned if a BNP candidate was teaching Politics. I'd be less concerned if they wetre teaching Maths or Physics (for example) as there wouldn't be as much of an issue re. bias.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I don't think that a union is likely to vote for that.

    So is it that which makes it acceptable to you then? That it's a Union doing the bullying?

    Those members have an option here, if they don't want to work with him. Find another employer. Hell, work for their Union if they only want to work with people who are "politically sound".

    It is never acceptable to enforce a political beliefs exclusion. Just as it wasn't when business used (in fact still do) the black list for "subversive" elements of the left wing. Just because it's the "left wing" political leaning doesn't make it acceptable.

    The problem here is that they are attacking a target which you can agree with, the BNP are an abhorrence in our country. So we defeat them by arguing against them, not social isolation.
    There's no point discussing something thats not going to happen is there?

    Yes there is because it shows the hypocrisy of the stance being taken. The principle is the important issue here, not the individuals involved.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LeedsLad wrote:
    I think the potential of a BNP member to cause harm in the classroom might depend on what they were teaching. I'd be very concerned if a BNP candidate was teaching Politics. I'd be less concerned if they wetre teaching Maths or Physics (for example) as there wouldn't be as much of an issue re. bias.
    Whilst you make a fair point, you're forgetting that teachers have pastoral responsibilities, run PSHE classes, etc. What would you say if he were teaching physics but also had overall responsibility for a class of 30 12-year-olds? Or even an entire year group?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All teachers are trained to teach the national curriculum and in many cases have to put aside their own beliefs. In R.E for example you teach the LEAs agreed syllabus and your own views should not influence your teaching or how the content is delivered to the class, of course nobody is going to be constantly watching him teach..making sure he isnt preaching his own twisted beliefs to the children but innocent until proven guilty and all that right? Unless he has been part of a criminal offence then a teaching qualification is a teaching qualification regardless of your personal beliefs...these shouldnt (in theory) play a part in the classroom anyway.

    Saying all that, im not sure i'd feel fine with him teaching my children.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The point isn't what he says to the kids, it is how his declared personal prejudices will interfere with his pastoral duties to the kids.

    He has publicly stated that he hates foreign people and that they should be deported. That does not rest very easily with his teaching role in a social exclusion unit.

    I have no arguments with people banning political members from teaching, I think it would actually solve a lot of issues if police and prison officers, teachers and medical staff were banned from being members of political parties, either as personal or proxy members.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    I think it would actually solve a lot of issues if police and prison officers, teachers and medical staff were banned from being members of political parties, either as personal or proxy members.

    Do you really believe that? Membership of political parties is at an all time low, we're talking about a very small minority of police and prison officers, teachers and medical staff that are members of political parties so I can't really see how placing new restrictions on that miniscule number of people is going to 'solve a lot of the issues' affecting these services at large. Tbh I really can't see any danger in a teacher being a LibDem or a GP a Tory or whatever. One of my teachers was a Labour party member and I don't think it ever caused any problems.

    The BNP thing is a tough one really and there perhaps isn't a one size fits all answer. In some cases there are probably very professional people who separate their controversial political views from their professional duties. But in other cases I can see it being a problem, as detestable as the BNP are things are going to vary a lot depending on the exact individual circumstances.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you really believe that?

    I believe that it would stop this argument if nobody was allowed to stand as a political candidate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    I have no arguments with people banning political members from teaching, I think it would actually solve a lot of issues if police and prison officers, teachers and medical staff were banned from being members of political parties, either as personal or proxy members.

    So people in public office shouldn't be allowed to be members of political parties?

    What about lawyers?

    What about the right of frredom of political expression, one of the basic human rights, according to the UN...?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What about freedom of political association? NASUWT clearly don't believe in it.

    I don't think that it should be banned, but being pragmatic it would stop this whingeing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    What about freedom of political association? NASUWT clearly don't believe in it.

    They do.

    If you agree with them.
    I don't think that it should be banned, but being pragmatic it would stop this whingeing.

    But it isn't being pragmatism which you are suggesting, we already have the pragmatic solution which is that there isn't any restriction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're probably right, to be honest.

    I guess what I mean is that I don't want BNP members in my kid's classroom, and the only fair way of preventing it is to ban all political affiliation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    I guess what I mean is that I don't want BNP members in my kid's classroom, and the only fair way of preventing it is to ban all political affiliation.

    You see, I don't have a problem with the BNP being in my kids classroom, just as I don't have a problem with their teacher being a union member.

    And I know which is more likely.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    You're probably right, to be honest.

    I guess what I mean is that I don't want BNP members in my kid's classroom, and the only fair way of preventing it is to ban all political affiliation.
    Or we can do it the 'unfair' way (unfair to BNP members only anyway), and simply make a distinction between the BNP and every other political party in the land.

    I really can't see why it can't be done.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    I believe that it would stop this argument if nobody was allowed to stand as a political candidate.


    It depends whether we're talking about:

    a) banning them from being a candidate; or

    b) banning them from being one and campaigning for any candidate: or

    c) banning them from being a member of a party.


    I think c) is totally unjustifiable, but there's a case for b) as it's already the case for other public employers eg the Police.

    a) is effectively already the case for many state school teachers anyway as you can't stand for a council if you're employed by it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You see, I don't have a problem with the BNP being in my kids classroom, just as I don't have a problem with their teacher being a union member.

    And I know which is more likely.
    Are you trying to say being a BNP member is no worse than belonging to a union?

    Personally I'd rather have Gary Glitter as teacher than a BNP member.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Are you trying to say being a BNP member is no worse than belonging to a union?

    It depends on your political outlook, doesn't it.

    Politics is politics, it all depends on whether you agree with it or not.

    It's been asked before, and you've never answered, but who the heck are you to say what people can and cannot think?
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