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Babies aborted for not being perfect

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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    briggi wrote:
    :lol:

    Well, this thread is a bit of a hornet's nest, I can see blagsta's point about a male (any male, regardless of sexuality) moralising about when women are and are/should be allowed to have an abortion. I'd say it's pretty easy to have such blanket, righteous views when it's not a situation you will ever, ever be in.

    But, I digress. Of course it's not a nice, fluffly thought that there are women who abort their pregnancy because of a relatively minor defect, but to be honest I would support the woman's decision to do what is right for her and never judge in that position. Of course there are people who will think that's a depraved, disgusting attitude to "human" "life", but I'm a depraved, disgusting kind of person ;)
    :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    He just believes that gay people can't have opinions on abortion as they won't be making babies on the whole.

    Well he's wrong isn't he because I know gay's who are parents
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Either men can't have opinions on abortion or they can. Whether they're gay or not is pretty irrelevant and it seemed like a typically bullying Blagsta comment to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophia wrote:
    Of course men can have opinions on abortion.

    However I would temper this with the reminder that as it affects women in a much more direct way than it affcts men, abortion is not a gender neutral issue and should not be treated as such. If the majority of men wanted abortion to be made illegal, and the majority of women didn't, then I would happily say that the women's views carry more weight as it is their bodies that are ultimately being debated.

    :yes:
    Thats what it boils down to.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can see what you're saying but for people like me who are very loving/involved fathers I would appreciate an equal say in the life/or not of my child.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How ridiculous to suggest that people who would never be in a certain situation cannot comment/judge on whether it is right or not.

    That is the same as for example defending soldiers accused of war crimes against criticism because those criticising have no experience of being in the army, coming under fire etc.

    or saying you can't criticise Tony Blair's decision to go to war because you would never be in a position of having to make such a decision yourself

    etc etc etc
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    That is the same as for example defending soldiers accused of war crimes against criticism because those criticising have no experience of being in the army, coming under fire etc.

    or saying you can't criticise Tony Blair's decision to go to war because you would never be in a position of having to make such a decision yourself

    etc etc etc

    No, it isn't.

    While it's highly unlikely any of us would be in either of those positions, it's physically possible that we could be.

    I don't think for one second that men can't or shouldn't have - and voice - an opinion on abortions, or any other issue that physically relates solely to women. But when men start getting pregnant and being in the position of choosing an abortion or continuing with a pregnancy... well, then maybe I would take their views - and the attempted imposition of their views - as anything more than a blip on the radar.

    Oh, I just saw that post. I totally agree with sophia (can't get used to that name change ;) ).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't see why you would regard the view of a man as less valuable than that of a woman.

    Would you hold the view of a woman you didn't know in higher regard than of a man you knew for example?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can see what you're saying but for people like me who are very loving/involved fathers I would appreciate an equal say in the life/or not of my child.

    Problem is, there's no way of legislating means of men to have an equal say without the most vulnerable women out there suffering for it. For every great partner out there who would fully support their partner's decisions (regarding any issue of pregnany from abortion to pre-natal testing) there are some who give no support, would run off, or try and coerce their partner into something they don't want.

    Back to the post on men's opinions, of course they can hold those opinions, I knew if I had an unwanted pregnancy, I'd want my partner's input. But men can run away from a pregnancy, women can't, it's their bodies which are affected. Even if men could get pregnant, the decision would lie with the person who was pregnant themselves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophia wrote:
    The same principle therefore is applicable at the larger level of social policy about abortion, in my opinion. Men are entitled to opinions, and those opinions should be listened to and respected and are important in the decision making process. But ultimately, women's views count for more, carry more weight, because it affects them more directly.

    Of course, that's not to imply that all women will agree about abortion, because they quite clearly don't. But I do resent male dominated institutions such as parliament or the church making pronouncements about women's bodies and women's lives unless they have given due weight to women's voices.

    I do you see your point but I am not sure that I agree with it.

    The principle that only those affected the most should have their views listened to could be easily applied to other situations.

    e.g. is it objectionable that heterosexually dominated institution such as parliament decide on policies affecting primarily homosexuals?

    Laws etc represent the view of society not certain segments of it....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    heterosexually dominated institution such as parliament


    Are you sure ;):confused:

    You might as well have mentioned scottish MPs voting on English issues...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    I'm really shocked you'd resort to such a bigoted method of debate Blagsta.

    How the fuck is it bigoted? Its a fact - luke has made no secret of being gay. I'm not having a go at him for being gay. i'm not making any derogatory comments. How is it bigoted? :confused::confused::confused:
    I put it in cos he's not likely to be having kids or have to deal with a pregnant g/f so he's got a different perspective on the debate. I'd have thought that was obvious.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    He just believes that gay people can't have opinions on abortion as they won't be making babies on the whole.

    Where have I said that you can't have an opinion? :confused::confused::confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well he's wrong isn't he because I know gay's who are parents

    Yes so do I. So what? Its not the same perspective being in a gay relationship as it is being in a heterosexual one. That's not bigoted, its a fact.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    How ridiculous to suggest that people who would never be in a certain situation cannot comment/judge on whether it is right or not.

    Fucks sake, whats the matter with you? Where have I said that luke can't comment? :confused::confused::confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Either men can't have opinions on abortion or they can. Whether they're gay or not is pretty irrelevant and it seemed like a typically bullying Blagsta comment to me.

    You think that's bullying? :confused: You need to get out a bit more mate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ive known gay parents too, but its less likley to happen by accident isnt it. I think with issues like this, then although everyones entitled to their opinion, final say has to rest with the woman. Its the business only of the people involved, and even then, final say HAS to be with the woman. How could it be fair to make a legislation forcing a woman to gestate. Forcing her to give life when she doesnt want to. You wouldnt force someone to give a kidney, even if it would give someone else life and they were compatible.
    In theory I like the idea of men having a say, after all, its part of them too, but in reality, only one decision can be made. You cant compromise - she either gestates or she doesnt. Until the day you can transplant foetuses I think it has to be like this, and a man has to either rely on the goodwill of his partner or discuss in advance what would happen in case of an accident.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In theory I like the idea of men having a say, after all, its part of them too, but in reality, only one decision can be made. You cant compromise - she either gestates or she doesnt.

    Well, exactly :thumb:

    I know this might hurt the tender feelings of some men (and women), but it's just not their decision to make. Giving a man - any man - an equal say over what happens to a foetus gives them a say over the woman's body that is equal with her own. That can never happen [again].
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My point is that a man does not have the same perspective as a woman on this. A single straight man will not have the same perspective as a man in a relationship with a woman where they are trying for a baby. A gay man will not have the same perspective as a straight man. An 18 year old will not have the same perspective as a 35 year old. Its an emotional issue, your perspective will be affected by the emotional context of your life. Not that hard a point to grasp, surely? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why aren't I surprised? This is blatant homophobia on Blagsta's part, and all he has received is a mere slap on the wrist from Jim V. It also fails completely to take account that a woman can have a child no matter what her sexuality. Being a lesbian doesn't somehow biologically bar a woman from getting pregnant? I will agree that men and women cannot possibly have the same perspective on abortion, mainly because only women can go through abortions. Men cannot get pregnant, after all. What sexuality has to do with it, however, I cannot understand.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blatant homophobia? Get a grip on yourself man. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    What sexuality has to do with it, however, I cannot understand.


    As I said - need a diagram do you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I must say, I find the accusations of homophobia and bigotry absurd. Just cos I mentioned someone's sexuality (which that person has made no secret of) in a discussion about reproduction. Some people on here need to think a bit more and jerk their knees a little less.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I must say, I find the accusations of homophobia and bigotry absurd. Just cos I mentioned someone's sexuality (which that person has made no secret of) in a discussion about reproduction. Some people on here need to think a bit more and jerk their knees a little less.
    Rest assured you'd be the very first person to scream "homophobia" were it someone else expressing such repellent views.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Repellent views? What on earth are you on about? :confused::confused:
    I've stated that homosexual relationships don't produce kids and that therefore there would be a different perspective on reproductive rights. You find that repellent? :eek: That's just utterly bizarre. :confused::confused:
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