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But I as ever just want to expand peoples thinking, as especially with the israel debate, people are often too stuck in their own perspective / mindset to actually listen to what the other side is talking about.
I come to David Irving's prosecution. I don't agree that he's a "right-wing martyr" now, as some of the press have stated. I simply think he's an idiot. To question the 'official' version of the Holocaust is not a crime, but to deny it ever happened is foolish in the extreme.
And the first and logical step in ensuring that doesn't happen is stopping cunts from claiming it was all lies.
You might not agree with such laws being into place. But the fact remains that they are in place. Irving went to a country and broke the law, and he's been punished for it. That's the end of it as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't expect not to be punished if I go Austria and drive at twice the speed limit under the influence. Just as I wouldn't expect not to be punished if I'm caught breaking another law, including Holocaust denial.
Christ...
Moron.
If I'd lived under that regime, a schizophrenic like me would be dead by now.
Aladdin,
You have made numerous references in this thread to a law that Irvine broke. Do you actually know which law (name) he was accused of breaking ? And when (date) did this alleged transgression take place ?
6 million Jews died in the Holocaust compared to 10,000-25,000 gays. If we’re taking the 10% of the population are gay statistic then obviously a far higher proportion of Jews were murdered in the Holocaust than gays. People were not sent to Auschwitz for having a gay grandfather. Most gays in Nazi Germany could and successfully did hide their sexuality, few Jews successfully managed to hide their Jewish identity. (I’m not trying to trivialise suffering of other groups in the Holocaust).
It seems like you’re implying that Israel’s existence has only ever caused conflict. You must be unaware of Israeli achievements in science, the arts, philanthropy and commerce. Israel has provided a home to Jewish refugees from Europe and over three quarters of a million Jewish refugees from Arab states in the 20th century. Were I an Israeli I would be immensely proud of Israel’s accomplishments.
It's a state, it can only exist through conflict and violence. What are you, simple?
A quick demonstration of how an abstraction can do any of those things would be great, and some proof that it was needed in the endeavour would also be astounding. People never did painting without imaginary lines around them, did they? Science can't occur without a fictional state and men with guns?
Some proof of Israel's actual existence in physical reality would be great as well.
And barking fucking mad, to boot.
What law ??? No-one has revealed all on that one yet,even though many are talking about it.
So far, Irving is alleged to have broken a law (which one ?) in 1989.
That would be the one which says holocaust denial is illegal and I suspect no-one has revealed which one, not because it doesn't exist, but because none of us are experts in the Austrian judicial system.
If you're so interested I suggest getting in contact with the Austrian embassy I'm sure they'll be able to give you chapter and verse.
That "one" to which you refer was enacted in 1992. Three years after the alleged offence ? If that is the case,how many "rule of law" worshippers also believe in retroactive law ?
Well I don't believe that retroactive laws are (generally) a good thing and I don't think holocaust denial should be a crime.
But that's kind of irrelevant, because no matter how flawed the law of Austria I've been wearing a blue beret in a country where the law had collapsed and I know which one I'd rather live in (because you're not too bright Seeker, I'll give you a clue - it's Austria)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,1648607,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/people/profiles/article346741.ece
http://news.scotsman.com/latest_uk.cfm?id=265642006
http://vienna.usembassy.gov/en/policy/antisemitism_austria.htm
Not neccessarily, but in reality lawlessness equals disorder and with disorder life is nasty, brutish and short. And all the theories in the world of why this isn't true isn;t going to beat the reality that it is.
What were you doing there,besides showing off your headgear ?
Nah bollocks.
Your missing some key ingredients I think.
Where is a good one. When is another. Who is great too.
I've lived miles from anywhere, where the nearest policeman was hours away. There was no law. But there was order. I've lived in the centre of cities, surrounded by policemen, judges and the law and theres been no order whatsoever. No theory here, just experience. People generate spontaneous order. How else could they have come up with the law at all?
They aren't synonyms by a long sight.
Just as state enforcement of unjust, undemocratic (dare say, outright tyrannical) laws has a long history of making life brutish and short for far too many. So too, in fact, have the transnational wars of aggression waged under the pretense of enforcing/imposing "the rule of law", even as they have made a mockery out of countless legal and moral precepts.
Wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a self-acknowledged MIC-indoctrinated lackie like NQA to decry systemic injustice, he'd just as soon help facilitate it.
So he wasn`t prosecuted under the 1992 "Holocaust denial" law that everyone has said he was.
Logically,can there be such a thing as a "National Socialist crime" ? As others have pointed out,everything the National Socialists did was "legal" :chin:
So, eleven million humans over the period of WWII, which was approx five years. This equates to more than six thousand every day including weekends and xmas!
Have these bodies been recovered? Or is all the evidence from witness statements and the testimony of nazi war criminals?
I don’t know, has anybody researched the holocaust?
Take care when asking questions like that
I don't believe the man should be punished. I think what he said was terrible but that imprisoning him won't do anything more than act as a recruiting tool for right wing political parties and give them something else to whinge about. I think also that a big point in remembering the Holocaust is that we should never let smething like that happen again.
Most people love freedom of speech until they disagree with what is being said.
It seems things are more connected than first thought
http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/2006/02/google-censors-antisemitic-video-and-i.html
When you say everyone, you mean everyone but the dozens of sources which make clear he was prosecuted under a 1947 law. I've shown you a few, but a rudimentary search of google will pick up more
No - various member were tried for crimes which were illegal under treaties the Germans had signed up to, including treatment of prisoners and civilians in occupied territories. You could possibly claim it was 'legal' what they did to German Jews it was illegal to murder Polish Jews, as the Germans had a duty to ensure their welfare as the occupying power.
I meant everyone whose opinion I had seen or heard up to reading your links (thanks for those)
So "rule of law" worshippers should only show indignation to the treatment handed out to "legally acknowledged non-German Jews" if they are to remain consistent to their belief system?
Yes, if you believe in the absolute rule of law. Few people do. But the fact that the rule of law is flawed in some cases, doesn't mean that the absence of it leads us to some sort of utopian paradise.