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But fuck me, what does it have to do with Iraq?! And since when was it such a threat as huge as it has been hyped? It's just like the cold war, but now the enemy isn't specific - they can call who they like a terrorist - even Saddam. At least with the USSR, they were only one lot. Even if they were not honestly that dangerous.
it's easier to solve an overstated yet not signifigant problem than solve the real problems in this country, like social mobility, and having a dynamic yet stable economy etc
That this also satisfied the condition named in the PNAC's own formative and, ever since, demonstrably active agenda - namely ...
- only highlights the outrageous notion that some foreign boogeymen just coincidently and conveniently managed to perpetrate such multiple attacks unchallenged by US air defences a mere 9 months after the PNAC ideologues assumed power in Washington (giving them the very catalyst called for). The lunacy of such a suggestion is beyond the pale of believability.
Once again, people believe what they wish, but the FACT is that nothing more than repeated collusionist mass media supported ASSERTION has ever been produced to PROVE the official explanation.
This is the psychological phenomenon of "manufactured consent" which has long been known as the most effective means of manipulating public perception, simply repeat the assertion with enough official endorsement and nothing but the most scant and inconclusive details need ever be held up to cement the paradigm in the minds of the majority.
Al Qaeda is nothing more than the new "Red Menace" and much more shadowy and diffuse making it all the more effective and long-lasting for the ideologues now in power to advance their militant agenda. As Cheney himself said "this is a war that will not end in our lifetimes". Sadly, the war is one not waged against "terrorists" but against long identified economic targets with any who dare fight back sufficient to fill the role of "terrorist" for mainstream, non-investigatory corporate media to repeat ad nauseam. Thus is the paradigm intended to be perpetuated to the advantage of the elite few.
Much easier to scoff, I admit. That is the power of publically reinforced mythology, and precisely what the PNAC rightly counted on to marginalise those who might seek to hold them to account.
[Always humorous though to see how reactionistically Blagsta will deride any suggestion that the very elites he otherwise decries for waging class war against us average citizens could possibly have orchestrated this event, regardless of the much more logical consistency and breadth of independent research underpinning that argument]. Just another shining example of the simple common refusal of to believe that our own system could have allowed such individuals of sociopathic disregard for human life to ascend to power.
The US used it to get a conviction. Then the Islamic Extremists made it happen for real.
Poetic Justice gone deadly.
Let us look at the facts, aside from a document produced 3 years before the Republicans came to power for a second.
The USA security on its airplanes, internal flights, not international flights was laughable at best! Anyone could get on a plane! The security on the planes themselves was nothing, you could view the cockpit if you asked nicely. Taking control of a plane in the air already flying would have been easy. Manouvering an airbourne plane is not that hard, even for jets, once you mastered basic things such as pitch, etc.
It was 4 planes highjacked in flight on the same day. That was all it was. It was no more difficult to carry out then manouvering a large explosive device into the basement carpark of the world trade centre towers.
American air defense is all well and good over the White House in Washington. But in the rest of the country like New York, which planes fly over all the time, it is unlikely fighters would be scrambled to shoot a plane down (at that time) at the first sign of a plane off course or a lack of communication.
Basically, it was a terrorist attack orchastrated by terrorists, trained by terrorists who were trained by the US intelligence services.
How the incident was used was one thing, but it was not created by some secret shadow government working with evil elitist jews for the agenda of creating a new pearl harbour incident to start a war to stimulate the american industry and economy.
The only truth to the present threat is that these people existed. Everything else from suggestion, made above, that "they" ever factually stated that they were now turning on the west following their success against the Soviets decades ago to their alleged possession of logistical capacities or cohesion as a "terrorist organisation" capable of not only pulling off 911, but supposedly mobilised and interconnected so as to have been equally responsible for other more likely false flag events from Madrid to Turkey to London to Bali (where in point of fact youll find more logisitcally capable and interconnected CIA/MI6/Mossad bases of operation) is just part of the asserted but never once evidentially proven myth.
It all hearkens back to the reliance upon suggestive "narrative" by the PTB and the press to convince the largely uncritical and complacent masses of whatever sounds even remotely plausible so long as one does not dig into the precedents of our own governments' history of black ops and false flag terrorist tactics.
That's one of the key elements discussed in the BBC series The Power of Nightmares and other similar in depth analyses of the present manipulation of public perception.
Conspiracy theorists claim to have evidence into the moon landing and every venture into space been faked. They calim they digged hard enough and found the "evidence" to prove it. You can prove anything with anything these days.
But that doesnt change that the incidents happened, or who caused them. I do not deny how they have been used subsequently, but they were carried out by an interwoven network. To deny such a thing is to start saying the IRA were really working for MI5 all along. It amounts to the same comparison.
"Interwoven network" isn't a very accurate description of how things work though, is it? It's more a disparate bunch of individuals with the same enemies but widely different goals all helping each other for a perceived "greater good".
It's like saying that me, the guy who fixes my car for it's MOT, the guy he buys the parts from and the teaboy all form an "interwoven network." It's bollocks. None of us cares much about the other.
If you've ever gone on a long trip with a bunch of people ,you will easily see how something like 9/11 requires both military style planning and for everything to go "juuuuuust right" and that's merely to get on the plane, never mind anything else if it really was 19 men from a different part of the planet.
And Hitting a tower block is a darnsight harder than it looks. Especially at that speed!
No, the most logically and historically consistent explanation which can withstand transparent scrutiny is more likely the right one.
What you seem to take for "most likely" is "most commonly accepted and media reported", regardless of the quite well established use of propaganda and misinformation by our commonly accepted media.
Hard proof, not repeated claims by supped "authority" figures, however numerous, is what leads the critical mind to informed truth. No hard proof beyond the most circumstantial snippets has ever been provided the official "Al Qaeda threat" apologists to conclusively confirm their claims. One important reason why to date no actual convictions for Al Qaeda supsects, detained without due process of law or viable legal representation, have been secured in a transparent court of law.
Drug offences and other non-terrorist acts have been used as lame support for further claims of "success in the WoT", but those have been shown for the falsely ascribed acts of terrorism under the Patriot Act and similar legislation that they are.
Islamic extremism in the world translating into horrific acts of murder conducted by terrorist groups as we have seen in Israel, NYC, Madrid, Bali and London is a danger that we are facing on one front. On the other in Iran we are facing the similar threat of Islamic extremism, except in this case it is not the work of underground terrorist groups but the guiding ideology influencing the policies of its leaders. The root influence of the fanatical and violent dogma of al-qaeda and Iran is essentially the same, a twisted and warped interpretation of Islam.
If thats the case then why ask the question in the first place? You have apparently made up your mind and no amount of analysis is going to convince you otherwise.
The same is true here. There are really Terrorists in thw world who have commited acts of terror. They ar enot Irish like the IRA which have been dealt with for so long, but Islamic extremists. Some with true belief and some who are merely brainwashed sheep with not enough sense.
NOT every post i have made has been against that initial point. I simply refuse to accept yet another completely obscure conspiracy theory about a shadow government working with Israel elites to organise terror attacks on its own people for the purpose of moderate to insignificant social changes when absolutely no evidence what so ever is propose. Not when there is so much evidence to support the recognisded theory.
What i find interesting, clandestine is that you appear to not be able to accept anything that happens in the world what so ever in any way shape or form, with out linking it to some conspiracy that has taken to your liking this week. You also never ever can stop from making up your mind straight away. Why is the pot calling the kettle black in this case i wonder?
And all because i seem to disagree about some secret shadow government you ar enow making posts targeting me! No one will argue with you so now you have to resort to baiting people...tut tut!
There is nothing obscure in what I have presented and even provided historical documented verification for the precedents thereof. What is an obscure conspiracy theory (never proven beyond mere repeated assertion, however "official" the pundit) is the supposed diabolic and capable global terrorist threat of Al Qaeda. A mere assertion-become-filter of thought through which all acts from retaliation against our ongoing neo-colonialist occupations in theatres of war to even the most unrelated act of singular lunacy is processed and labelled as evidence of "Al Qaeda-related terrorism".
Sorry, but those who bother to go back through the long running record of US/Allied powers foreign policies (and the extents to which they have repeatedly and covertly gone to manipulate our publics' perception in favour of their agendas) inform themselves sufficiently to recognise the difference between government/media suggestion and far more plausible and logically consistent reality behind the emotive soundbites being employed today.
Those who instead pay heed to the drivel that passes for mainstream news by and large fail to appreciate the continuity of methodology employed by the actual "organised" and "global" terrorists we need fear and oppose, namely our own corporatist-serving governments and MIC themselves.
Again, I suggest that you bother to inform yourself with some actual reading and research on the extreme ideological agenda of the PNAC, which is now the operative foreign policy of Washington and its clients. Go read The Grand Chessboard for starters and perhaps youll realise that snide ill-informed comments such as "insignificant social changes" are quite the opposite of what these nutcase extremists intend to achieve.
Unscrutinised and unopposed by the majority of our citizenries, the current leadership is leading us all toward a future of renewed tyranny and betrayal of human rights that will leave you scrathcing your head wondering how it all came to pass. Don't be so naive.
Firstly, i do not subscribe to media biased journalism towing the line of Governments or Corporate "big business" domination. I do question the reports and look deeper. What is the sound bite of the day though amusing to me is not my choice of intelligent or informed opinion.
Secondly, i do concur with the use of modern terrorist actions by the regimes in power to manipulate the populus, making changes to policy, aggressively usurp many granted freedoms and human rights, which is undeniably ongoing as we speak right now.
Thirdly, however, i do also believe that there is such a thing as terrorist cells in operation, carrying out acts of terror or planning them. Extremist elements at work, such as fanatical clericks or demigogues like Bin Laden are bringing about such people, through brainwashing or simply appealing to their nature as downtrodden individuals of weak, crushed, poor, or broken nations.
Finally, i do not disagree there are serious threatening elements at work pushing the "Terror scare" forward as did similar elements in the McCarthy era who pushed the Red Scare forward. That is my comparison. But as i say, i do not feel we can deny the threat posed by actual terrorists acting as they do, for the sake of focusing solely on the internal threat. I feel we need a balance and should be working towards opposing BOTH such threats to society.
My comment on "insignificant social changes" was not a swipe of naivety, but a comment on the lack of change to date. The way you wrote was implying that there had been littarally devestating changes and though i am sure you will tell me there have been, i do not believe we have thus far had the devastating changes to our way of life, but i think they are still to come, with the now obvious steps been taken to push an Iran agenda forward.
I would like you and i however to clear the air on something, and that is i do dislike one thing you have done from time to time in our debates, which is call me an apologist. though you have not done it here, on occasions you have i felt you have done so out of context of what i have said, as i never ever try to be an aplogist, i simply form my opinions based all sides, rather then limiting my opinions to one side supported by certain forms of literature. I tend not to form a final opinion until i have seen all sides, even the "sound bite from the media" side of things.
For example prior to the Iraq war, iw as hugely in favour of it, more for the purpose of regime change then anything, but in hindsight i see the pointlessness of such an action as America have failed at every stage to do anything right, except for securing the oil ministry. The $250million that "was misplaced" in an American compound is proof enough of that!
And half a dozen others I could name. The British Official Secrets Act makes it illegal to print about British screwups. For instance, last week, where the MI6 Athens Station Chief outed himself over a kidnapping operation. Or when they tried to replace Qadaffi with AQ sympathetic groups in the mid-90s. Or when the British bugged the UN. Fortunately, as a non-British citizen who likes his foreign holidays I do read about these things more often that the average person.
The fact is that these things do attempt to happen far to regulary and screw up. Do you know what it takes to have a totally black operation? Its tricky as hell, because you have to keep it from your own side as much as the targets. But there are too many bits of paper nowadays. People are spotted where they shouldn't be. Someone has far too much money of late, or mysteriously had their phone logs scrapped for the past 2 days. They show up, one way or another.
The multiple examples show that the executives are highly unable at running successful operations. That doesnt mean they cant, but the blackest of conspiracies are either carried out in the open, with complicated bits of paper and dull names, or come out sooner or later when someone loses a nerve or gets caught.
For AQ to be part of a conspiracy, it would take an extremely black operation. Billions would have been expended, names would have needed to be fed to informants in every country from Saudi Arabia to Germany. Operatives would have needed to spent years training with Islamic terror groups to learn their techniques and MO. They'd need to have fluent Arabic speakers. Funny then, that the amount of operatives have been slashed successively for years and that Mandarin and Russian are still taught more than Arabic. That the CIA is considered weakest in the Middle East of any area in the world. That informants have come out naming this mysterious worldwide organization that threatens America.
Hell, there are people in the Intelligence Community violently opposed to Bush who have stated the threat of AQ repeatedly. In fact, the current leadership of America is not interested in them, as their actions have shown, don't consider them a threat. And now with alot of the AQ leadership dead or captured, we have lone wolf terrorists using the AQ name and ideology to carry out their own greivances.
I don't doubt the authorities take advantage of situations like the Nazis did when the Reichstag was burned down. The idea that the security services planted the bombs on 7/7 is laughable though. There are Islamicist nutters out there capable of this sort of stuff, a quick trawl of the net is enough to tell you that.
yes i know, but it's now believed the reichstag fire wasn't done by purpose by any of the main poltical parties or their militias in germany at the time, but by a splinter group
still meant all the socialist parties got banned though, very similar to the fact a non-violent islamic group is going to get banned it seems
The Reichstag fire was set by one person acting alone, a not particularly bright Dutch communist iirc.
well thats what was claimed at the time, well fact is however it was started, it was used as an excuse to ban all socialst parties just before the election, using the presidents executive emergency powers, which strangely exist in this country now
Or is that another one of those mad conspiracies?
That way you have a terrorist incident to use to your advantage and you dont have to get your hands dirty.
hmmm noones sure, but no matter what, hitler didnt actually set the fire
noones 100% but nonetheless, it was used to the NSDAPs (the real acyonym of the nazi party) advantage
So Im inclined to think that perhaps the administration knew that something the like of 9/11 was going to happen, and sat on it cause it played in to their hands.
thats it you have got it!
Its the cock up thats covered up , not the planning.
America didn't do 9/11 itself and The UK didnt do 7/7.
Did they cover stuff afterward up? Yeah its a fai rbet. Because they di dit? no. Because they had info, could have done more to prevent it or messed up on the investigation afterward? yes!
Its piss poor planning. Not secret conspiracy's.
Al-Quadea exists simply as.
Is there some less then straight things going on with Iraq though? yes.
Course there is some stuff going on with the oil, it is Iraqs only commedity afterwall. You have to recoup your losses some how, its called spoils of war. Isn't that a bit bad though? Well maybe, only coz of the media potryal and the big guilt complex going over the last 20 years or more.
Is it natural though? Yes it is.
Shouldnt the big oil comapnies have tnedered though? course they should.
Are the US the big bad guys though? No. The UN wa sripping Iraq off for years! And yet everyone says they are the good guys and we should listen to them.
I think there is a disturbing tide of anti-americanism spreading in the west and its not good and not accpeted due to the fact its america, its wets, its rich and its prodominately white. Doesn't make it any less dispicable though.