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What Muslims think
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2028033,00.html
From today's Times (Tuesday Feb 7):
I wonder what Aladdin makes of these figures.
I’m unsurprised at the evident anti-Semitism of vast sections of the Muslim community. Although I find it worrying that supposedly tolerant people who condemn other instigators of racism and anti-Semitism happily ignore equivalent Muslim attitudes – airbrushing Muslim anti-Semitism to some extreme fringe when really it’s prevalent even amongst the most mainstream creed of Islam.
From today's Times (Tuesday Feb 7):
Populus interviewed 500 Muslims between Dec 9 and 19 2005.The Jewish community in Britain is in league with the Freemasons to control the media and politics - 46% agree/yes - 22% disagree/no.
The Jewish community in Britain is a legitimate target as part of the struggle for justice in the Middle East - 37% agree/yes - 35% disagree/no.
I wonder what Aladdin makes of these figures.
I’m unsurprised at the evident anti-Semitism of vast sections of the Muslim community. Although I find it worrying that supposedly tolerant people who condemn other instigators of racism and anti-Semitism happily ignore equivalent Muslim attitudes – airbrushing Muslim anti-Semitism to some extreme fringe when really it’s prevalent even amongst the most mainstream creed of Islam.
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I don’t believe that to be the case – however I’m extremely worried that a lot of Muslims seem to think the Jewish community in Britain is a ‘legitimate target’ as part of the ‘struggle for justice’ in the Middle East; it’s a disgusting and unacceptable concept that deserves to be condemned. Not that you'd seem to care.
Gives a slightly more positive spin on the report. Including that a small majority believe Israel has a right to exist and that only 7% supported suicide bombing in the UK and a not much larger 16% supported them in Israel.
Its also worth noting that the problem with political view polls is that they are very difficult to pick up the subletities in people's views, for example there may be Moslems who support Israel's right to exist, but only if it leaves the occupied territories - some of these might have voted for Israel has a right to exist and others might have gone for israel doesn't have a right to exist. Neither option of which really covers the ambiguities in their views.
I mean if a Catholic Priest set up a church in Iran and it was torched to the ground with all the congregation of Catholics inside, everyone would say how stupid it was to set up a church there. But if the same happened to a Mosque in a Western country, everyone would say, "in this modern age, how can such narrow mindedness and racist things happen" or again words to that effect.
Why is it double standards that we cannot expect the same level if civilityfrom middle-eastern nations that they expect from us?
Of course this is just a general example. Lebanon, for another Example, provided Syria is not interfering, is these days a rather good example of a multi-religion/faith nation. Then again, there was all them years of war...
I was flicking through the news channels as you do sometimes, and came across several different reports with several different Muslim people, some moderates, some non-practising, some considered extreme, and they all said one similar thing;
"Muslim is a race you are born, Islam is a faith you follow!"
I found it interesting.
I wonder what percentage of Israelis would turn out to believe Arabs and Palestinians are inferior and/or should be kicked out of Palestine so the land can be taken for a Greater Israel.
I'd say it'd be well past 7%...
I'd like to know the kind of questons that were asked, and in which manner. The poll is highly contradictory in itself, with the great majority rejecting violence. So I somehow doubt up to a third plus of all Muslims are speaking of the Jews as valid targets for assasination or terrorism.
You should bear in mind who commissioned the poll in the first place. Remember, you only need to ask the right questions in the right way to get the results you want...
I have never suggested that the majority of Muslims support suicide bomb attacks in Britain or Israel, or indeed terrorism in general. Although I do believe a narrow majority if not a significant minority of Muslims hold some quite disturbing views on homosexuality, the right to freedom of expression and attitudes towards Jews I don't think the majority of Muslims support terrorism; and I've never suggested that they do.
It’s funny but when I suggested that the bulk of Muslims would celebrate were Salmon Rushdie killed – bearing in mind that a massive number of Muslims called for and still do his death you branded it - not very consistent are you?
I’m perfectly aware that such polls can be skewed but I don’t doubt that a significant number of Muslims in Britain view the Jewish community as a ‘legitimate target’ - it's naive to think otherwise.
Thanks. Well, I don’t take opinion polls as automatic truth – my mistake if I implied that but I don’t think I did. However, this opinion poll in The Times does confirm my personal belief that there is a large minority, if not a narrow majority of Muslims that are hostile towards Jews. (I also happen to believe a similar large minority/small majority hold extremely illiberal views on an array of issues – homosexuality, attitudes towards other religions and women and beliefs towards those who ‘insult’ Islam). I think everyone needs to be concerned about the latter, the way many Muslims in the Arab world have reacted to these cartoons has been profoundly worrying and shows that little has changed since the Satanic Verses.
Whilst I agree on the probability of ambiguity in the questions and the answers...7% supported suicide bombing in the UK?! That's about 1 in 15 people. That's just over 30 people in the sample.
I'm trying to think of a way of ambiguously framing that question...
:rolleyes: The poll doesn’t intend to reflect let alone generalise the opinions of all Muslims in the world – it was a poll of British Muslims.
And your logic would render every single poll completely inaccurate as samples are usually of that kind of size – and while nobody would claim polls are an absolutely reliable gauge of public opinion they do serve some purpose and unless extremely skewed generally broadly reflect opinion. I think someone who posts on here (can’t remember who) has something to do with this kind of stuff in their job.
You can probably say that a small minority of UK Moslems support suicide bombing in the UK and that slightly more support suicide bombings in Israel. What the polls don't do well is say what circumstances these people support suicide bombings. They might support them in all circumstances until Sharia law is introduced and the UK becomes a Moslem state. Or it might be they stop supporting them if the UK pulled out of Iraq or even if the UK became more critical of Israel.
You're trying to distill people's believes (which are usually complex and often contradictory) into a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
I take your point, but I'm disturbed that 7% would support suicide bombings under any circumstances so that's not really relevant to me. It means that a significant number consider attacks on their chosen country (whether born here or moved here) as acceptable.
But 7% is pretty low (assuming 3% either way that's between 1 in 10 or 1 in 20) and I wouldn't call it a significant minority.
I'm pretty sure if you asked the rest of the Brits whether they thought it was right to send all Moslems to concentration camps that you'd get similar numbers agreeing with it.
Now I'd much rather that there was 0% support for suicide bombings and 100% support for the right for Israel to exist. But in many ways these figures are pretty positive as it shows the vast majority of Moslems don't support suicide bombing and are against the extremists.
There's a difference and it's the reason why this is a significant minority in my view. Even if 25% of Britons wanted all Muslims sent to concentration camps, they still wouldn't have the power to make it so. Suicide bombing on the other hand is the province of small groups and individuals. That makes 1 in 20 a very significant number (even though a tiny minority of even your 1 in 20 would actually engage in it).
Most Catholics beleive that too. What you going to do about them? (I'd outlaw both myself.)
remember the % of americans who think they should be killing iranians
http://www.populuslimited.com/poll_summaries/2006_02_07_times.htm
Most Catholics believe what?
As for comparing Catholic and Muslim extremism I know a lot of Catholics weren’t thrilled about the Da Vinci Code (although probably many simply because it was a shite book rather than taking any particular offence) but even those offended Catholics didn’t hold public book burnings or demand Dan Brown’s decapitation. Bit of a contrast with how many within the Muslim community responded to Salmon Rushdie and these cartoons isn't it? And I'm not talking about all Muslims but it does sadly apply to a large number. But on a positive note I do think this will all die down soon and perhaps with time Muslims will become more accepting in this country of non-Muslims exercising their right to freedom of expression. In the mean time I don't think we can compromise values most of us take as given to satisfy religions, the precedent of satisfying religious demands whether for votes or to avoid offence could prove pretty dangerous to democracy and civil liberties.
Across the board a greater proportion of 18-24 year olds are prepared to justify suicide bombings than the overall sample.
Greater proportions of 18-24 year olds are also likely to regard all the above targets [civilians, police etc] as legitimate [targets].
Younger Muslims are also more likely than those in general to agree with Abu Hamza
Hm.
And as MR asks, how many are likely to be honest? Can we justifiably say that more would agree with suicide bombings if it wasn't a social taboo to do so?
Catholics. Beleive the Jewish conspiracies and that they are scum and should be killed. Hence support amoung Catholics for Facism until they found out it hated Christians too...
A LARGE number of Muslims? What are you, stupid? sincewhen was single figure percentages a large number, if we take realistic results? And Catholics and abortion workers? Catholics and burning people? Hell, Christians in general and attrocities. Christians have killed far more than anyone so far in History.
And let's not touch on GWB's "God told me to invade Iraq."
Are we talking about Catholics in Britain? Ireland? Italy? Any evidence to support that? Funny but I don't think I've heard of many priests in this country being investigated for inciting racial hatred.
The percentages were not single figures.
And the relevance of that remark to this debate is what exactly?
was stalin a xtrian? hitler? polpot?
I suppose you could call Stalin a religion... his mad cult.
Biggest religious killer sofar is Christianity...
I know a good Catholic. He gets on with my Muslim freind when they rant about Jews. It's quite amusing.
And I don't see Extremist Muslims being investigated for it in Iran. In a country with an established religion, people don't question it now, do they? Britain = Christian. It's just the way it is. We are a majority Christian nation, the majoirty gets its way.
I said, REALISTIC figures.
Relevance of the last bit? I don't see anyone CARING we went over there, butchered many Muslims in the past. What goes around, comes around, I guess. We gave them a Holy War... guess it's their turn now. Fuck. I would have to live here during this, wouldn't I?
I didn't say Christians.. but Christianity. Brainwashed zealots following some arse giving them an order to kill the heretics.
All religion has been used for. When was the last time it was a force for what the book said?
Belief in stuff that's not really there - check
Hierarchical structure - check
Punishments for non believers - check
Code of rules more important than people - check
The belief in nations is identical to the belief in any other made up crap, it's a religion.