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Teacher training...pgce...?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Hi, I'm starting to consider doing a pgce course and wanted to know how other people are finding it and answer a few of my questions. I've just finished uni and have a History degree, pretty certain i'd want to do secondary school history, though someone mentioned you can do a course to be a teacher to teach just 6th formers which could be cool.


What subject are you training in? Primary/Secondary? Anyone doing History?

How did you chose where to study it? How did you get info, do uni's do a prospectus for the course?

How did you apply?

How much experience with children did you have/need?
Also how can i go about gaining some?

What's the training involve? Do they teach you whats on the national curriculum first or is it more focused on practical experience of how to handle children and planning lessons leaving you to sort out the details of what you'd teach and when?


Thanks!
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Comments

  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    What subject are you training in? Primary/Secondary? Anyone doing History?

    Currently doing a PGCE in Primary Education.
    How did you chose where to study it? How did you get info, do uni's do a prospectus for the course?

    I chose to go to Sheffield Hallam as I live in Sheffield. Leeds Met was my second choice. All I did was look online however, I think I could've got a prospectus about each from either uni.
    How did you apply?

    Through the GTTR. To apply for any postgrad teaching course you have to go through the GTTR. It also gives you info on the Graduate Teaching Programme too. You can either apply online or through a paper copy.

    The form is similar to your UCAS one. The GTTR are just a separate branch of UCAS.
    How much experience with children did you have/need?
    Also how can i go about gaining some?

    You need some experience in a school. It is one of their requirements to the course. You can get some by writing/phoning your local secondary school and saying that you are interested in doing a teaching qualification and are wondering if you can get some experience by shadowing one of your teachers. No school (in their right mind) will pass up on the opportunity to have an extra set of hands in the classroom.
    What's the training involve? Do they teach you whats on the national curriculum first or is it more focused on practical experience of how to handle children and planning lessons leaving you to sort out the details of what you'd teach and when?

    It is all of this.

    The PGCE is an extremely intense course. It has to cover all that the NC covers and you have to be able to teach the NC to the word. The NC is statutory and all teachers have to be able to follow it. However, you will also be taught the practical stuff too - how to manage a class, how to write a lesson plan etc.

    I love my course. It is extremely fulfilling and it is wonderful when you get into a classroom.

    If you have any more questions about the process or things in general then feel free to PM me :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Don't forget that if you only train to teach 16+ then you could be limiting the amount of hours you can work and the sorts of envrionments you can work in. If you really just want to teach 16+ you don't actually have to do a PGCE- there is a trainning course you can do to teach FE courses.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    just to add a comment to this teaching thread, I dont know know about all the specifics you mentioned up there but I went on the teacher training website, the one the tv adverts are for, and it seems quite complicated to become a teacher and despite what subject you teach you must have a grade C in GCSE maths. I dont get why its so important, especially when D is average. Why do you need to be above average maths to teach RS for example?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you need maths for most jobs i'm afraid. just like you would english i'd expect.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    Walkindude wrote:
    just to add a comment to this teaching thread, I dont know know about all the specifics you mentioned up there but I went on the teacher training website, the one the tv adverts are for, and it seems quite complicated to become a teacher and despite what subject you teach you must have a grade C in GCSE maths. I dont get why its so important, especially when D is average. Why do you need to be above average maths to teach RS for example?

    *nods*

    Unless you were born before 1979 then you need at least a C in both Maths and Science GCSE and a pass at A Level English.

    When you think about it, you need to be able to teach younger people. They need to make sure you know the basic skills.

    And it isn't *that* complicated a process tbh ...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But why a C in maths??? When D means average ability in maths, then why do you need to be above that to teach a subject that involved no maths what so ever?? Thats my point. It is the basics. they want you to be above the basics in everything. I'm just saying if they need teachers so bad then I dont understand why make it so stringent in that way.

    On the website I found it pretty confusing and there is a lot you have to do before you can become a teacher so.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    Walkindude wrote:
    But why a C in maths??? When D means average ability in maths, then why do you need to be above that to teach a subject that involved no maths what so ever?? Thats my point. It is the basics. they want you to be above the basics in everything. I'm just saying if they need teachers so bad then I dont understand why make it so stringent in that way.

    To me, being able to apply basic knowledge requires you to have more than a D tbh. I wouldn't be wanting people who know *just* the basics in a main subject to be teaching my children.
    On the website I found it pretty confusing and there is a lot you have to do before you can become a teacher so.

    It isn't. You need a reference from a school that you have worked in. That, and your degree (to do a PGCE). Nowt that major or complicated tbh.

    To become an actual teacher you need your PGCE or whatever and a CRB check. Again, not that complex.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you need to apply, theres a multitude of different courses, experience needed, conditions for teaching, different syteems for different years and the various qualifications.

    its not exactly easy to find out specifically what you have to do.

    Myabe you woulnt want a maths teacher who got a D at GCSE but difference does it make to an RS teacher, or a drma teacher or any subejct that doesnt involve maths???

    And its not just th ebasics. Its the avreage ability. People think D means fail at GCSE, it doesnt. It means average, so it means the majority of the country's math ability and before you say anything to the contary, that was told to me by my maths teacher who writes the exams and has written sveral of the text books that every school uses and marks the exams, so he knows.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    Walkindude wrote:
    you need to apply, theres a multitude of different courses, experience needed, conditions for teaching, different syteems for different years and the various qualifications.

    its not exactly easy to find out specifically what you have to do.

    You need to work out what course you want to do as it isn't just "teaching" And that process is exactly like choosing your BA. If you read it properly, it *is* fairly straightforward, regardless of what you say. I have been through the process twice now and my husband once and we both found it relatively straightforward. It is all explained on the canteach website. And they refer you to other places you need to look. It ain't as complex as you make out.
    Myabe you woulnt want a maths teacher who got a D at GCSE but difference does it make to an RS teacher, or a drma teacher or any subejct that doesnt involve maths???

    And its not just th ebasics. Its the avreage ability. People think D means fail at GCSE, it doesnt. It means average, so it means the majority of the country's math ability and before you say anything to the contary, that was told to me by my maths teacher who writes the exams and has written sveral of the text books that every school uses and marks the exams, so he knows.

    Teaching is such a hard thing to get into. They need boundaries. If you can't cut it then don't apply. They don't want you to be just "average" in the basic skills like English and Maths. They want you to be proficient in the basic subjects. Simple as. If you have a problem with it then there ain't anything you can do *shrugs*
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well they can't cry out for teachers and then say "no you can't do it" at the same time, all the while not backing teachers in various disputes and safety.

    I was in high school only 5 years ago and even then teachers were bitching to us about the state of the system, how crap it was and so forth. As far I could tell from them and all the reports I read it has only gotten worse. Combine that with demanding to have high grades in subjects that are not relevant to what you teach only adds to that. And no, teachers of non-maths subjects do not have to cover for maths teachers, teaching lessons, so need the maths skills, every cover teacher for a mtahs lesson I had never did a thing and besides that, it all comes out of the text books and teachers guide books along with the curriculam anyway so you don't even need that knowledge. You only need to learn how to read.

    the webiste I meant was the teacher training website.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    Combine that with demanding to have high grades in subjects that are not relevant to what you teach only adds to that.

    I'd hardly call a grade c high... and to be honest, it's not use complaning about it. you have to have a c and that's it, there's no way around it. as well as dealing with my course, my tutor also deals with entry onto teaching courses and she says she sees so many outstanding applications but if they don't have the required gcse grades she can't accept them. not because she doesn't think they'll make good teachers but because those requirements are set by the government and she has to go along with it. if people want to be teachers and don't have the required grades, it's not hard to re-take the subjects, teach yourself, go to collge part time, whatever.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    Well they can't cry out for teachers and then say "no you can't do it" at the same time, all the while not backing teachers in various disputes and safety.

    But they are not saying that, they are saying that, in order to do it, you need a grade C, which, let's face it, is not actually that high.
    I was in high school only 5 years ago and even then teachers were bitching to us about the state of the system, how crap it was and so forth. As far I could tell from them and all the reports I read it has only gotten worse. Combine that with demanding to have high grades in subjects that are not relevant to what you teach only adds to that.

    In what possible way does setting entry requirements lead to a degrading of the system?
    And no, teachers of non-maths subjects do not have to cover for maths teachers, teaching lessons, so need the maths skills, every cover teacher for a mtahs lesson I had never did a thing and besides that, it all comes out of the text books and teachers guide books along with the curriculam anyway so you don't even need that knowledge. You only need to learn how to read.

    By that logic no-one would need a degree to teach secondary anyway, we could all just read the set books and be done with it. You do understand the concept of entry requirements don't you?

    Personally I did not think that choosing a PGCE course was particularly difficult. Bearing in mind that people applying for these courses are expected to be of graduate level, it's hardly that much to expect that they can choose between the different entry routes to teaching and then choose between courses available. You would have gone through worse applying to UCAS.

    Frankly I'm glad that the entry process weeds out a few people. The people that the teacher training process lets down are not those who are incapable of going through the process, but those who find themselves competing for a miniscule amount of places because the universities are insufficiently funded.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    Walkindude wrote:
    the webiste I meant was the teacher training website.

    I have nothing else to add to what Mist has just written but wanted to comment on this ... the teacher training website (the tta or tda - they have just changed their name) is written by the same people who write canteach. They are practically one in the same and link to each other all over the place.

    And they ain't that complicated to understand.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so you need to above average in a subject that has no relavance to what you are doing. That doesn't sound unreasonable?

    I meant, that the government, the teacher agency etc etc are crying out for teachers. That is what I said.

    It just has no use for a teacher that doesnt teach a maths based subject thats al Iam saying and they just make it harder for themselves in recruitment.

    They don't even need it to fill in for other teachers as I said, they take it straight out of a book or do nothing. And soncidering how quite a few teachers just take everything out a text book and their little guide then maybe you could say there is no need for qualification on the whole thing. Maybe its been made out to be more then it actually is??? Just a thought.

    But if you think it should be reserved for only the higher ups and not the rest of us "weeds" who are no good then fine.I'm sure that will come handy when dealing with pupils and in stirkes over pay.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Personally, I think teachers should have a good all round education. Maybe that's just me, like.

    *shrugs*
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    Walkindude wrote:
    Yadeyadeyah.

    To me, it sounds like you are fairly bitter because you didn't get a C in Maths. Oh well.

    The governement set these targets, not the institutions. If you don't like it, don't be a teacher.

    Like Blagsta said, teachers should have a good, all round education. And to me, a C in Maths isn't too much to ask. A lot of jobs and other courses require this grade too, why not go and shout off about them.

    Yes, they are crying out for teachers, and yes, we are quite short of them. However, this is not because of "too high" entry requirements, it is because the government aren't giving institutions enough funding to train more teachers.

    And teaching isn't all about taking it from a book. I personally dislike a lot of books and schemes out there and have been making up my own units and schemes of work. However, the reason that many teachers *do* just take it out of schemes is because teachers just don't have enough time to prepare whole units of work anymore.

    I just don't understand why you are getting your knickers in a twist about a C in Maths. Don't like it? Don't apply.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sounds to me like someone has a chip on his shoulder.

    Surely it's just good reason to expect that teachers are profficient in most subjects? And lets not forget that primary school teachers have to teach ALL subjects, regardless of what their degree is in.

    I've found this topic quite interesting since i hope to become a teacher myself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What subject are you training in? Primary/Secondary?

    I'm training to be a primary school teacher (Foundation Stage/ Key Stage One).

    How did you chose where to study it? How did you get info, do uni's do a prospectus for the course?

    I chose a number of places that were closest to me and was accepted onto my first choice.

    How did you apply?

    I applied through gttr website.

    How much experience with children did you have/need?
    From various courses around 5 years.

    Also how can i go about gaining some?

    Voluntary work.

    What's the training involve? Do they teach you whats on the national curriculum first or is it more focused on practical experience of how to handle children and planning lessons leaving you to sort out the details of what you'd teach and when?

    My PGCE teaches the curriculum, content and delivery as well as other areas such as behaviour management and help towards achieving QTS. There are tests in numeracy, literacy and ICT. It is compulsary to have an undergraduate degree, experience with children, GCSE in maths, English and sciences at C or above. You may not realise it now, but all these skills are vital for everyday teaching.

    My PGCE is at Masters level, though i hear most aren't. It is an extremly demanding course, be ready to give up your job and social life for 9 months, i have. The DfEE pays me £6000 to train, though i hear this has now been withdrawn for new PGCE students. You may be eligible for a golden handshake though when you qualify. The DfEE should waive the tuition fees, contact your LEA for the forms. Also most PGCE's require you to apply in the summer, so it may be too late for this year.

    Anyway good luck.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    satehen wrote:
    Also most PGCE's require you to apply in the summer, so it may be too late for this year.

    Anyway good luck.

    For secondary you can apply right the way through til May or something ridiculous like that :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    littlemissywhatever quoted that I wrote "Yadaehyahdayh" or some such crap. I did not, do not make up words and claim they are from me. Its purile, childish and pathetic.

    Blagsta......words fail me.


    Of course its always down to the funding, its never enough money is it?? Thats all it always comes down to is money. I think thats just a very poor excuse. The funding for teachers doesnt effect the people it attracts. Requirements effect the numbers and teachers get more money now then ever.

    I am not talking about dunces being allowed to teach. I am not on about having any old person be a teacher. I mean if you went to university and got a decent degree,i think that proves some smarts. I also think if you did a ton of other subjects where you recieved A's and B's and indeed C's. Why 1 D should make a difference.

    I also find it amazing that D won't let you teach but a bunch of sexual assualt convictions and evidence of sex with a string of underage girls won't stop you getting a job in a school as a caretaker.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    Blagsta......words fail me.

    There's a first.
    Walkindude wrote:
    I also find it amazing that D won't let you teach but a bunch of sexual assualt convictions and evidence of sex with a string of underage girls won't stop you getting a job in a school as a caretaker.

    Except it will of course. You don't half have some weird views.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    littlemissywhatever quoted that I wrote "Yadaehyahdayh" or some such crap. I did not, do not make up words and claim they are from me. Its purile, childish and pathetic.

    Dude. don't be so uptight.
    Blagsta......words fail me.

    Good response to his point, then..
    Of course its always down to the funding, its never enough money is it?? Thats all it always comes down to is money. I think thats just a very poor excuse. The funding for teachers doesnt effect the people it attracts. Requirements effect the numbers and teachers get more money now then ever.

    You miss the point, we're not talking about how much money the teachers get, it's how much money the universities get from the government to run the teacher training courses. For example, computing is a shortage subject, yet I applied a few years back and there were hardly any places because English and Maths have priority in funding for courses. Basically, all the uni courses lose out, and the point is that there has to be a bar below which they can divide off a load of people and say it's not worth looking at them, because so many people apply for so few places. For the courses that you are seeing, that bar is a C at GCSE.

    Frankly if you're prepared to go through the slog that it is to get a teaching qualification, then it wouldn't be a reach to actually retake the GCSE and get the C grade. If it is, then teaching is not for you in my opinion.
    I am not talking about dunces being allowed to teach. I am not on about having any old person be a teacher. I mean if you went to university and got a decent degree,i think that proves some smarts. I also think if you did a ton of other subjects where you recieved A's and B's and indeed C's. Why 1 D should make a difference.

    Because it's a core subject that people imparting their knowledge onto others should have a command over, whether they are directly teaching it or not.

    Also, purely in order to get onto some A-level or uni courses you need that C grade anyway, so it's not an issue.
    I also find it amazing that D won't let you teach but a bunch of sexual assualt convictions and evidence of sex with a string of underage girls won't stop you getting a job in a school as a caretaker.

    A straw man argument, based around a flawed premise.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    my message to blgsat was not the first, he seems to have a thing againts me becasue I aint a socialist and now seems to find most of the threads I appear on to have a go at what I am saying.

    Yeah you need a C at GCSE to get on some A-level courses....Maths A-Level courses, physics A-level courses etc. Where you actually need maths. Do you need a grade C maths to get onto an english course? no. That being my point. Relevance to the subject.Especially when maths is is taught from books or solved by all with computers and calculators. Its not like you have any theory in basic maths. Its not like you have to make you own interpertation of Pi like you would say Emily Bronte. Its not philosophy.

    why go back to do one course where you scored AVERAGE when you scored above average, excellent on everything else?

    And Blagsta, it does, happen, in fact it did happen. Ian Huntley, had a long record and yet he still got the job in a school. So hardly a weak arguement. Its that kind of bureacracy , that isnt just in teaching but all over that makes it all a joke really.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:

    why go back to do one course where you scored AVERAGE when you scored above average, excellent on everything else?

    I've answered this above. If you can't accept what I'm saying there's little point in me repeating it to you.

    I do not see a D as being average, I'm not sure where you have gotten this statistic from. The generally accepted measure of success for a school is the number of pupils achieving grades A*-C, not A*-D.
    And Blagsta, it does, happen, in fact it did happen. Ian Huntley, had a long record and yet he still got the job in a school. So hardly a weak arguement. Its that kind of bureacracy , that isnt just in teaching but all over that makes it all a joke really.

    Huntly is a well-known example of a case where the records failed, and not the norm. And it's not just a weak argument, it's an entirely non-argument, having absolutetely nothing to do with the topic in hand.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    my message to blgsat was not the first, he seems to have a thing againts me becasue I aint a socialist and now seems to find most of the threads I appear on to have a go at what I am saying.

    Fuckin'ell mate, you're paranoid!
    For the record - no, I do not have a "thing againts" you because you "aint a socialist". I don't have a problem with you at all. I do however think that you're a bit too thin skinned to be posting on a bulletin board and I do think you should be able to back up your points and answer questions when asked.
    I also haven't read "most of the threads" you appear on, I haven't got a fecking clue what you post about mostly and care even less. However, if you're chatting shite on a thread, be prepared to be pulled up about it.
    Walkindude wrote:
    And Blagsta, it does, happen, in fact it did happen. Ian Huntley, had a long record and yet he still got the job in a school. So hardly a weak arguement. Its that kind of bureacracy , that isnt just in teaching but all over that makes it all a joke really.

    Well, not that's not quite what you claimed originally and ignores a massive part of the story but don't let that get in the way of you throwing yet another hissy fit eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you 2 accuse me of not reading things when the pair of you haven't read my posts.

    Mist-If you had read my previous posts, you would know that where I get my "statistic" from is my old maths teacher who is not just a maths teacher but member of the exam board who has written the exams, marked the exams and writes the text books that pracically every school uses for maths. So I think he is quite qualified, and he also mentioned your point about A*-C being the mesaure of achivement, he says that is false. A*-G are all pass grades, only U's are fails at GCSE and that "D" is the grade that means average, C and above is above average. So when people look donw on D, they shouldnt as it only mesn the average, the normal ability. Plus maths is set out differently to most subjects, its set in tiers so it limits what you can get. Foundation papers I belive you can only achiveve a D or lower, Intermediate is E-B and higher is C-A* I think. So its hardly fair to judge someone that got a D when it was the second highest mark they could achieve on the intermidate paper or the highest on the foundation.

    I'd also expect if you searched through alot of cases it wasnt the first time it happened and I have lost count of how many cases of teachers that have been done for child abuse, some with records previous.

    Blagsta-It is exactly what I claimed originally and you have just chosen to ignore this fact, which I find most typical.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    you 2 accuse me of not reading things when the pair of you haven't read my posts.

    Errrr...all I said was "Personally, I think teachers should have a good all round education. Maybe that's just me, like."
    Walkindude wrote:
    Blagsta-It is exactly what I claimed originally and you have just chosen to ignore this fact, which I find most typical.

    Errr...no it isn't. You originally wrote
    "I also find it amazing that D won't let you teach but a bunch of sexual assualt convictions and evidence of sex with a string of underage girls won't stop you getting a job in a school as a caretaker."
    then you wrote
    "Ian Huntley, had a long record and yet he still got the job in a school. So hardly a weak arguement. Its that kind of bureacracy , that isnt just in teaching but all over that makes it all a joke really.".

    What you're missing out is that in Huntley's case, there was a failure of communication because Huntley had never actually been charged with anything. Having "a bunch of sexual assualt convictions" will stop you having a job as a caretaker as all school caretakers are required to be CRB checked and checked under the Protection of Children Act. Now, seeing as Huntley had never actually been convicted, he slipped through the net. Which is not what you actually claimed happened is it?

    It might be an idea to check your facts before you embarrass yourself any further.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    you 2 accuse me of not reading things when the pair of you haven't read my posts.

    Mist-If you had read my previous posts, you would know that where I get my "statistic" from is my old maths teacher who is not just a maths teacher but member of the exam board who has written the exams, marked the exams and writes the text books that pracically every school uses for maths. So I think he is quite qualified, and he also mentioned your point about A*-C being the mesaure of achivement, he says that is false. A*-G are all pass grades, only U's are fails at GCSE and that "D" is the grade that means average,

    Etc. "He said she said" means nothing to me. I stand by my original post. Noone is interested in how many Ds a child gets a GCSE level. The yardstick for the measuring progress is A-C.

    Interestingly the DfES website says that -

    "Final figures for 2004 show that in maintained schools 52.0 per cent of 15 year olds achieved 5 or more GCSE and equivalents at grades A*-C up from 45.1 per cent in 1997"

    Which puts the average above the C grade last year.
    C and above is above average.

    Or not.
    So when people look donw on D, they shouldnt as it only mesn the average, the normal ability. Plus maths is set out differently to most subjects, its set in tiers so it limits what you can get. Foundation papers I belive you can only achiveve a D or lower, Intermediate is E-B and higher is C-A* I think. So its hardly fair to judge someone that got a D when it was the second highest mark they could achieve on the intermidate paper or the highest on the foundation.

    Discounting wether or not your maths teacher or the official stats are correct for a moment, then I will be a bit contraversial here and say that I would prefer the teachers for my children to be a bit more educationally able than average. I don't think that that's asking too much.

    If you can't get a C grade in a fairly fundamental GCSE then I have no qualms whatsoever with you being prevented from teaching. It ain't that hard.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you people really are the end. Looking down your noses at everyone else.

    Techers may have an effect on kids education yes, so does the school but the most effect is the child themsleves and if they are thick chavvy twats that wanna mess around and not learn or stuck up snobs that dont want to learn then a teacher may have gotten nothing but A* in all their exams and gained all the qualifications you hold onto so preciously and it won't make one bit of difference.

    Oh and how typical, I give you the quotes from a man who not only teaches maths, writes the papers and marks them but also writes the textbooks and you still discount it when it is FACT.

    Pathetic.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :lol:

    you're funny
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