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They shouldn't be looking to the government or CEO's for handouts either. If they want their area and their community to improve it is the individual members of that area which will make it change, no one else.
That's not what I'm stating, I'm not saying they should be begging for handouts like some beggar in the street.
But if those with power, money and influence will hamper their efforts at every turn, then it becomes very very hard to climb out of poverty.
I think communities should be working together to help themselves, and get a fairer slice of the pie, instead of squabbling amongst themselves for crumbs.
The phrase 'making the rich give them some money' sounds like handouts.
I know what you mean though.
OK so lets take my points shall we
I identified it was black people who were rioting because of their perception about, economic ownership in their area
I said that the way forward for them was not to riot but to try and empower them sefves by ownership of those business,
You said I was a hysterical racist spouting drivel, lets look at what youve just said, It sounds more than a little like the points I was making dosnt it ?
Iv answered each of your points, youve avoided most of mine, perhaps you could disagree with me infuture with out being resorting to innacutrate insults ?
Would you like me to list all the points youve yet to answer, all the contradictions youve made, (just on this thread) and you can list mine.
Hysterical driviling racist am I ?
I think it was more your description of 'black' stores selling 'black' goods which people found odd, given we believe there not to be such things.
Yes, it would be a good idea for them to become more self reliant, but it is not a good idea for them to close ranks and make this even more of a 'race' issue.
I dont think anyone has called you a hysterical driviling racist.
Fair enough you wernt calling that Kermit was
There are stores that sell goods meant for black people only: Hair and Beauty products.
Hopefully Kermit will reply to my previous points to expalin or apoligise for this
"all you post is hysterical drivel"
and this
"What an utterly ridiculous post and what an utterly ridiculous point"
and this
"confirm the suspicions I already had about your, er, racial tolerance"
And/or expain his insults and answer the points I made that he hasnt answered, in return Ill answer any points he feels I failed to address,
Or he can just ignore this post and wait till the next time he feels like throwing a cheep insult ?
See its this which we found odd, first you mention this is about race, then you suggest that it would be better if 'black' people had their own stores selling goods designed for 'black' people only. Surely that would only exaserbate the problem?
Niether 'side' should concentrate at all on the colour of their skin because its a non issue. They should all concentrate on the crappy social housing and areas they live in and the people who put them there.
Well my first point was that this could be (unfortunatly) be the start of future racial problems, a realastic worry I think, the start of a new polerisation of communities, just to dismis this worry becasue "race dosnt exsist" is foolish I think.
The only thing I siad along those lines was
"Personally I think a better way to handle it would have been to try and ensure that those shops selling "black" products were owned by black people this seems to make sense to me.
Have you ever seen a Sari shop not owned by Asians, a Kilt shop not owned by Scots (even if they have an English Accent?)"
It is true have you ever seen a black or white owned Sari shop, I dont have a problem with "Communities" "races" or "groups" owing their own business
in their own communities, I think this is generally preferable and as a rule to be encouraged, it gives people a stake in their community a sence of ownership, and pride.
It is easy for middle class white people living in the UK to spout off "race dosnt matter" or "it dosnt exsist" youve never seen your self as part of an underclass or different not fully intergrated community.
I'm not suggesting that we can just magic away people's view that races are different over night. But we can and should do a lot more to dismiss the idea that anyone is different because of their skin colour. We should at every opportunity make it obvious it is a non-issue.
For this reason we should never help 'black' people to start 'black' businesses, but we should help people start businesses.
Well generally Id agree but there are certainly times where this would be preferable, such as in disenfranchised black communities, for the same reason Black policemen and black MP's are seen as a good thing
Hmmmm, you were doing OK until this bit "how many more incidents like this it will take for people to realise you cannot group immigrants together and expect them to get on".
The first point is to get back to the point of the girl who was allegedly 'raped.' It doesn't really matter if she was a catalyst or not, what does matter is that this evidence or non-evidence helps to feed the argument that the tensions were already there in Birmingham. As for her coming forward I'm sure you guys have read the national press and several newspapers have quoted her as being an 'illegal immigrant.' If a UK illegal immigrant was to come forward and her papers are not sorted, whose to say she could not be deported immediately. I'm not a lawyer and British police I would say are fairly compassionate to other forces worldwide, but still, would you come forward. Despite an 'alleged' gang rape by 19 men (which may or may not be pure fiction) it's obvious the girl in question will not want to be sent back to her country of origin.
2) the second thing there are noy such thing as 'black products' - no one owns a product. When people refer to black products in a colloquial sense 9/10 times they are referring to 'black hair products.' Black hair products are what people with 'black hair use' - that's afro hair, mixed race hair, kinky hair" use to control their manes unless they want to wear a huge fro with pride. Black hair products refer to gels containing aloe vera, olive oil, coconut oil, basically any greasy substance that is manufactured with black people in mind. Some of you may be unaware that black hair produces next to no oil. 90 per cent of black people do not need to wash their hair every day or barely once a week because our hair type is naturally dry as a bone. Pantene does not suffice because we need to use shampoos that ACTUALLY puts oil back into our hair rather than degreasers that most other non-afro hair groups will need to use. This is what is menat by black products. The other 'black products' are foods from Africa and West Indies, but obviously appear in other places like: yam, cassava, breadfruit,manioc, aloe vera, sorrel, brown sugar from Demerara, rice, maize etc - things found widely in Africa, South America and West Indies. These are loose terms. Like someone saying: "I 'm going to by Scottish food, ie. haggis or whatever. It's the same difference.
3) West Indians in Birmingham are frustrated because they have been there a very long time and in general (of course there is the odd success story) they have not got very far. Those are the facts. Placing blame is pointless. What I would say from my point of view 'black peoples' are not known worldwide as particularly enterprising groups of people. Be it ethnicity stereotyping or not Asian people, Jewish people and from the Arab world notably the Lebanese are - what you can call in ancient historty or now were known as 'trading peoples' or many of their people were in commerce. Black people in Birmingham probably resent the fact that Asian people settled within a very short space of tiem and got their business nicely off the ground. There is lots of black owned business ins London - hairdressers and bakeries to name a few, but I don't see it very much elsewhere. In order to ensure economic viability within your 'own community' a thriving small business landscape helsp. Black people en masse do not have this. If you work for the big corporates or any boss an dyou're not your own boss, there is the potential to be sacked at any moment right. When people from a specific community start setting up lots of their own businesses to serve not only their community but others tehy bring money in that can be pooled among their community but also benefit the greater good. For whatever reason black people in the UK have not done this and im particular West Indians. West Africans have shown themselves to be slightly more enterprising in terms of stting up their own business ventures. Now the Asian people are living with blacks and teh two groups do not talk.
4) It is not rocket science to work out why some black and Asian people appear not to be the best of friends. During imprerialism, which is a long time ago, but still relevant today, European imperialists rule, Asians were placed second (servant status) and blacks and Inisn untouchable class (slave status.) Today, unfortunately in the older generation the idea that black is the lowest common denominator is still prevalent in the mind of some Asian people and may people! Lest someone jump up and accuse me of anything, I have more Asian friends than any other group and they have been very honest with me about a) what they think about black people as a whole b) what their parents think. The reason I'm accepted is because I'm black, I appear middle class, I'm Muslim and they think I look coolie (half Asian - so that 's alright then). I'm actually not half Asian or middles class but that's irrelevant. Many black youths are still not in higher education. Asians tend to respect 'the educated' and people with degrees, research or evidence of endeavour, so that's another factor. I also speak and understand Urdu because I had so many Asian friends at school and also having spent three years in Bradford gives me yet more insight into various 'psyche'. One thing I do know if people bothered to open their eyes and realise there is almost 0 interracial marriage between blacks and Asians that is overwhelmingly the most telling factor of all. I know black men who've dated Asian women, but in 28 years I have seen three black girls dating Asian guys. Just three and I make up one of them. Now what does that say? To me it says we may both be 'ethnics', but Asian and African-Caribbean cultures are extremely diverse? Both groups would both admit to a) marrying amongst themselves or b) marrying a European rather than each other.
5) Many people are injured in hospital and it was an Asian part of the High Street that was rampaged but it's an African Caribbean boy that has been reported in The Metro (I'm not vouching for their accuracy!) as lying dead in City Hospital, Birmingham. So I would just like to point out there are victims in all sides in this perceived 'race war.' Whoever already said it this is not really a race war but an 'economic war.'
I would tend to agree - this is, as i understand it, a racial conflict between asians and blacks. However, economic factors without doubt play their part - this type of shit doesn't go on in leafy green suburbia.
Exactly! I wasnt trying to suggest that the issue of 'race' isnt important here, but it is an excuse.
If these people lived in a nice area with decent opportunities they would not be blaming each other.
The racism and violence is a product of the enviroment.
ohhw, so u think this post was meaniningless, yeah u aint fukkin black thats why, u dont get the fuckin dirty looks in shoppin centres, the following in stores. imagine i want my afro cut, the skills of a black barber can be learnt, i hear u say 'what', black hair is diffrent from karcasian, anyway a indian guy is cuttin my hair but givin me fuckin dirty looks, hes takin my fukin money an givin me dirty looks, anyone who talks about 'race dosent matter', are u 6 years old, well, ur not nieve, 7 something million jews died cause they where jews, fukin open ur eyes!!!!!!
Why don't you learn to cut your own hair? This is not very enterprising but will save money all round. Yes, I am capable of cutting my own hair, plaiting it, cornrowing it and I'm sure it's a big 'fro just like yours. It's difficult and sometimes its nice for someone else to enhance,i.e. a hairdresser, but I really don't care if it's the butcher, the baker or teh candlestick maker who's doing it. But again. If you feel this guy is treating you like shit all teh while he's chopping your mop, why go back to him? There si alwaus someone else in the community or yoru community who can do it for you - your Mum, your Dad, my sister!
We all get followed round shops. I kmow English people who get followed round shops too though. Last night I went to a cheapy American-owned restaurant by myself after interviewing a friend and was in the toiklet for ten minutes when I heard a bang on the dorr. I said 'who is it. I'm coming out now if you need the loo?' No answer, jyst continue banging I come out and teh managaress and a butch female bouncer are standing there. What's going on you say. Er I was going to the toilet. Looks of disbelief. Are you sick love, is tehre somthing wrong we want to know what's going on. I was like no. They watched me wash my hands. Bouncette leaves more pointed questiond from the manageress. I said look if you think I was snorting coke in there I wasn't. I can see from your face that's what you could be getting at? And she was liek no why love we were just worried. Worried abouts omeone in the toikets for ten minutes - no I don't think. Now it's a crime to be doing your make-up and taking a no.2. Well I won't be going back to themed American restaurant. they wouldn't even let me out the bouncers and waiters were blocking my path as I left.
What I am saying is: YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE POWER TO VOTE WITH YOUR FEET MATE. If it upsets you that much complain/don't complain but don't go back. Simple. Nobody deserves, poor treatement, it's shouldn't be acceptable, but it happens. So like a Scout, be prepared. Ultimately, if someone has a problem with you based in prejudice and not reality it's there problem not yours. Sometimes it's not worth even getting angry or frustrated just separate yourself from the situation and move ahead with your life and forget Joe Blogg's discomfort (in this scenario the Asian barber) in having to deal with you.
If this guy is disrespecting you and your 'filling his pockets' and you haven't got an 'attitude' than, well he's his own worst enemy then isn't he? Just like the service with a smile crap American restaurant I went to last night. I'll be lobbying for my tip back.
man, that shit is WHACK.
yeah, mazza u are right, but all i see is anger, when he finneshed i did gun him down but his face was like, at least i got my 5 pound, all i could think was prix, in honesty i should had beaten him up, sorryu to say but thats the only way he would learn, i actually beat up his son too, its a tight comunity, because he was racist towards me, an that was the only way i thoight i could make him change!
oh yeah Born Slippy, FUCK YOU, do u have any idea that what u said was a the biggest bullshit iv seen on this site so far!!!!
'thats what happens when u put immigrants i a tight community', mabey not in thouse words but how can u come up with something like that?
raw, mazza, are u for real, how can u cainrow ur self??? i get the girls in college to do it for me???
naw naw naw, he woudnt tell his dad, never iknow that for sure
aint it outa order in this day an age to feel like this, but i KNOW people out there get it worse, like this kid who joined my year, he came from an area that was full of racism, every day they word terrorise him!! i couldnt belive it when he told me, im not blind, i know it isnt over, on friday i was lining up outside the mosque because it was PACKED, the line was like 50 meters long, people going past in their cars and stuck in traffic were SO sSHOCKED, mouths opened, gazing, saing fuck u osama, an puttin fingers up!!!!!!!!!
what a frikken outrage.