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Indeed. But what do we do with them? Put them all together and you have a sink estate. Don't put them all together and everyone has to suffer them.
I'd agree with that.
You use social pressure, if one person or family is acting up in an area social isolation should change their actions. However if it is not then and only then should there be legal sanctions against them.
We criminalise actions far too quickly.
Yes, almost certainly true although...
...Racism is not necessarily only about beating people up or throwing abuse. My [very] white friend (blond hair, blue eyes) had to fight tooth and nail to marry the English-born but Hindu-Indian (I hate making that kind of differentiation, but her family do so, so what can you do?) that he loves. They didn't want them to marry, not because he wasn't Hindu, but because he was white. Whichever way you cut it, that's racism - not as harmful as other sorts but deeply ingrained.
Again, there is much truth in this as far as it goes.
It doesn't, but it is speculation. I tend to agree with your analysis but is there any kind of research we can use to back up the idea that social disaffection is the leading reason for racism?
Here our ways part. Tolerance is one of the reasons I love my culture. I don't immediately meet people from other cultures and assume that they hold contrary views to mine, neither do I meet 'Western' people and assume that they are liberal but I do see my culture as being one of the most tolerant in the world in general . Where people have imported their cultures there has tended to be a certain amount of isolationism - I'm not sure of the solution as I am in favour of cultures existing along side each other but there are bound to be clashes where cultural relativism exists.
Oh definitely, and it is a problem, I quite agree.
There are strong societal pressures in many ethnic communities to essentially keep the doors closed. That can't be denied or explained away by poverty, but the argument that social exclusion creates this defensive nature is certainly true, at least to an extent.
Some people are just naturally very conservative. There isn't a nice handy rationale for this, they just are.
Isolationism is a big problem on all sides.
I suppose I should explain myself a bit more.
To say that misogyny and homophobia is the sole preserve of black and Asian communities is a gross fallacy. People attack the burkha as repressive, for instance, without realising that the counterpoint of that- the West's obsession with fashion- is in reality just as oppressive, if not more so. The pressure to have the right clothes and the right body- and the social vilification received if you don't- really cannot be considered as anything other than oppressive.
If there was equality in the West we wouldn't have women earning 2/3 of what men do, we wouldn't have women getting sacked simply for getting pregnant, and we wouldn't have the huge problem of religious homophobia, particularly in the United States.
I guess what I'm saying is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
now white people who are racist tend to keep it to themselves or those they know like them, where as other races dont feel this need especialy if its whites there being racist too.
Who are these people? And where do they come from?
Again, almost certainly true but I'd be interested to know to what extent. It's a potential chicken and egg situation.
Yes and yes.
Absolutely. The question is, are they cultural norms? If I had to define Western culture, it would definitely lean towards misogyny and homophobia being considered negative traits, even though they are still to be found...probably without too much digging.
Well, yes, I suppose so. There's a difference between having a mode of dress forced on you and choosing it (with the proviso that many Muslim women choose to cover up). There is certainly a difference between the repercussions of not wearing a veil in certain parts of Iran (possible prison sentence/flogging) and dressing unattractively on the Kings Road (possible funny looks/snide comments/likely just being ignored). You're unlikely to be shunned by your family in Britain because you're fat and dress badly.
All true but the fact that we view these things as wrong and are working to end them is as much to the point.
Yes. I can't speak for religions - I hold all of the major ones in the same disregard I'm afraid. People are welcome to them but I want as little as possible to do with them.
In conclusion, I don't think we do live in a glass house. I think we're on the right track and I'm proud of the progress we've made.
do you deny thet racism was more acceptable in the 60's than now, if you dont then what are you asking ?
And who, exactly, condones racism from ethnic communities?
Answers, please.
I am not in anyway going to disagree with you there, I was just wondering who these 'wet liberals' are?
I would say in terms of liberal ideals we are in general moderately right wing as a country, certainly so compared to parts of Europe.
What do you want a list of names, its not as simple as that there are or were a lot of people who would jump down on the accusatiopn of racism coming from white people but not black or others, are you honestly trying to tell me this isnt true.
A lot of them would have been left wing, not that im objecting to that, you are jumping up using semantics rather than addressing the issues Im raisng because it dosnt fit in with your view.
Im not saying people encourage non white racism but its not challenged as much as white racism, so thats permission.
Its like in this culture I can go to a full pub and tell a joke about birmingham loudly and brummies, and even people from birmingham might laugh, like wise I can say I hate the french there stupid and lazy, people might think its a bit odd ~I might be told im being silly, but thatl be all, so that can constitute social permission, I go and say the same thing about blacks (stupid and lazy) and I definatly would be challenged and probebly beaten up, hence no social permission, but back in the 1950's the reaction would be different.
If a black person makes a coment like Klitchco cant be the best heavyweight he;s white this might get a laugh or a polite disagreement,
If a white guy says Colin Powel cant be clever he's black then thats a different reaction
There is some truth in that, though I think that is more relational to their communities, not to 'liberals' in anyway.
,http://www.johannhari.com/index.php
But there is another dysfunctional aspect to multiculturalism. In practice, it acts as though immigrant cultures are unchanging and should be preserved in aspic. This forces multiculturalists into alliance with the most conservative and unpleasant parts of immigrant communities. For example, what would you do if, in your block of flats, there was a white family where the women of the house rarely left without the patriarch's permission, and - on the very rare occasions when they did - they covered their face so only their eyes were visible? What would you do if, in the same family, there was a gay son who knew he could never tell his relatives, because he would be beaten and then ostracised from everybody he has ever known?
The answer is easy (I hope): you would be disgusted, and you would try to help them. But there is a family just like this in the building where I live, and there is only one difference - they are Asian. So I do nothing, and nor do any of the other nice liberals who live here, even though this family is as British as we are. Isn't there a word for treating people differently because of the colour of their skin?
Thats unfortunate that you feel you're unable to help, but I still dont see that as having anything to do with being Liberal.
Didnt you see thats not my words, I left a link at the top and appropiatly attriduted his words, so no plagerism here.
But on that point can you imagine going up tp a muslim house and telling them that they need to give the wife more freedom and stop her having to wear the coverings. Just knock on the door, and say
"now look here.........I gather that you dont let your wife be as free as she should, its not on you know" ha ha
If it was a white non muslim family I might well say that but not a muslim family are you trying to tell me you would.
It is indeed a troublesome situation, I would be naturally reluctant to get involved in other peoples family business whatever their background.
I had a somewhat similar situation with one of my neighbors once, the arguements between husband and wife seemed to be getting worse and I think he might have been physical on a couple of occasions. However before I had made up my mind to question her about it they both moved out.
Translated: There isn't actually an excuse for the way the guy had to fight tooth and nail, because of the colour of his skin, to marry a girl he loves. :razz:
Evidence?
Racism here (and I can't talk from other groups than white people because we're less than 1% ethnic minority or something) tends to be within the people who are working class as they tend to claim that foreigners are coming in and getting free cars, benefits ect. Of course, these 'asylum seekers' are European immigrants coming over to work. If these 'asylum seekers' get jobs they complain about them taking all the jobs!
It's a no win situation. Another thing people claim is that 'P**is' won't integrate... But to be honest, if I were in a country where the locals seemed so negative towards ethnic groups I'd be frightened to integrate, to get to know people.
* I'd rather the P insult wasn't used, even in context.
hmm, if you can find some evidence that im homophobic and misogynistic i would be very suprised. i think youre just upset because my views are offensive to you. as for western culture being intolerant compared to black and asian cultures, well; how about you buy a plot of land in iran or saudi arabia, build a christian church and an off licence next to it and see how long you last.
No, but lets not sit here and pretend that its only those big bad nasty foreigners who do that, or who are even the worst at it.
I'm sure if Nick Griffin junior came home with a black boyfriend she wouldn't last very long with him either.
Some people are just bigots. The colour of their skin doesn't change a thing.
I'd still love to know who these "wet liberals" who condone ethnic racism are, though.
I thought it was you who on several occasions in the past have laid into go_away in particular for being a femionist bitch.
If it wasn't then I apologise.
Although yes, I do find your racial intolerance very offensive, as any right-thinking person would.
Woah there! i haven't suggested anything of the sort. I just though you went a rather long winded way around trying to explain some of the reasons as to why the situation had occurred, when infact, as you've just cleared up for me, you thought they were as bigoted as i did.
I also haven't made any reference to "wet liberals" either.
Good.
Jonny8888 was seriously implying it though. It was more in response to him, you just had a nice quote to use.
That was in response to iknowyourmum, who still hasn't answered the question "who are these wet liberals?"
Thats a bit like asking "who are these goths" because I say something that dosnt fit in with your argument your demanding unresonable proof dening that liberals of the wet kind exsist, If you want a definition Id say overly polliticaly correct people who worry more about their own "values" than they do about whats actually happening to people.
Do you want a list of names,
So who are thses "biggots" of which you talk,
I didnt say they condone as in encourage it but there are loads of people who will challenge white racism but not from other races, tell me you dont agree with that.
No, I don't agree that people only challenge white racism.
No, I don't agree that people care more about their "values" than about what is happening to people. Whatever that means.
What is "political correctness"?
White racism is more of a problem, for obvious reasons. The ethnic minorities are just that- minorities- and bigotry from the dominant towards the weaker is far more of a problem than bigotry from the weak to the strong. Unless you dispute that the strong bullying the weak is more serious than the weak bullying the strong.
It is, as I understand it, an attempt not to unwittingly insult someone.