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Another reason to hate immigrants....

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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Originally posted by BlackArab
    I thought the topic was about the English language and the influence of immigrants upon it.

    Don't you start, unless you actually enjoy the pointless bickering?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BlackArab
    Define 'fancy'? I'm assuming you mean words of Latin or French origin but I could be wrong.
    Geographical distribution is spreading even faster with the use of modern media i.e the internet, text-messaging etc. Even magazines like The Face which used to signify what was new and cool are being left behind and losing relevance to the net.
    Yeah, you're basically right about the fancy words. And although geographical distribution is spreading through modern media, there's no conclusive evidence to suggest that this is promoting lexical change or diffusion. We're only getting to the stage where TV is being analyised for its effects on language change, and any systematic study on the internet, text messaging, instant messaging etc is still a long way off.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LadyJade
    Don't you start, unless you actually enjoy the pointless bickering?

    :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Methinks you're getting a row there Arab... Bad boy. Watch our or LadyJade'll spank you! :p
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Don't tempt me
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
    Yeah, you're basically right about the fancy words. And although geographical distribution is spreading through modern media, there's no conclusive evidence to suggest that this is promoting lexical change or diffusion. We're only getting to the stage where TV is being analyised for its effects on language change, and any systematic study on the internet, text messaging, instant messaging etc is still a long way off.

    The evidence although not formally identified or studied is already out there. You only have to listen to conversations on the bus, read adverts or the papers. The effects of the internet on traditional papers has been written about often enough in the Guardian Media sections and similair places.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
    Methinks you're getting a row there Arab... Bad boy. Watch our or LadyJade'll spank you! :p

    I think I am too, trouble is, its one-sided as I'm not sure what its about.

    On another note, I would recommend reading 'Made In America' by Bill Bryson if you haven't already. It covers the history and development of American English and is a damn good read.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BlackArab
    The evidence although not formally identified or studied is already out there. You only have to listen to conversations on the bus, read adverts or the papers. The effects of the internet on traditional papers has been written about often enough in the Guardian Media sections and similair places.
    Yeah, it's been written about, but it's all reactionary, limited in scope. It kinda goes like 'the disgusting way our language is being perverted', 'it's terrible the way they use language' etc etc. I'm doing an essay on the effects of text messaging on grammar, and there are no academic texts on it at all, but loads on the stuff up above. Yeah, the evidence is out there, but it might be less than what people perceive it to be. What linguists need to do is actually study what it is people are saying, and if we are just getting round to looking at the effect of TV, then all other media will be later on down the line. And I haven't read any Bill Bryson stuff, might do when the exams are finished. I know a little about American English, quite interesting stuff. There's a big project going on just now in America by a guy called William Labov, who is attempting to categorise and collect ALL vowel variations in America, West coast to East. A very big project...
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue is also a very interesting read, a mixture of linguistics and history with a bit of the fine art of swearing thrown in.........link here
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This seems to be a really popular book among non-linguists! I haven't read it in 4 years of language studies, and I don't think any of my friends have read it. It is really a good read? I plan on reading more widely once these exams are over. :yes: There is also a Scottish version called Mither Tongue by Billy Kay, all about the Scottish Language situation. Never read that either... :lol:
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Its a layman's linguistics book, in that he is much more interested in telling a good story than the grammar and technical side..... My mum bought it for me as some light reading when I was doing linguistics....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
    Yeah, it's been written about, but it's all reactionary, limited in scope. It kinda goes like 'the disgusting way our language is being perverted', 'it's terrible the way they use language' etc etc. I'm doing an essay on the effects of text messaging on grammar, and there are no academic texts on it at all, but loads on the stuff up above. Yeah, the evidence is out there, but it might be less than what people perceive it to be. What linguists need to do is actually study what it is people are saying, and if we are just getting round to looking at the effect of TV, then all other media will be later on down the line. And I haven't read any Bill Bryson stuff, might do when the exams are finished. I know a little about American English, quite interesting stuff. There's a big project going on just now in America by a guy called William Labov, who is attempting to categorise and collect ALL vowel variations in America, West coast to East. A very big project...

    Not sure about studies on how computers/internet/comms tech changes language per se, but theres been plenty of writing about these technologies effects on culture and identity, which are relevent to how we use language. A lot of it is very academic, with a post-modernist or post-structuralist cultural studies slant, but worth checking out nonetheless.

    This is worth a read

    0415246598.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

    as are some of Sadie Plant's writings.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That looks quite an interesting read. Blagsta, as to technology having an effect, that's what needs to be determined. Technological advances have had an effect in the history of the language, printing being a prime example, but we need to look at if current technological advances are going to be long term effects or just a blip in the course of the language. And yeah, you can't look at language (well, you can, but you won't get very far) without some reference to the speakers who use it. What I would like to find out is if all this text message speak, instantaneous interaction without another person being present, will have an effect on the language overall, and since they are such HUGE influences, I would say that unless correction faclities are in plcae, then they will have an effect on how we use language. Not in our lifetime, but definitely in the future. LadyJade, what kind of linguistics did you do?
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    a compulsory year of the basics at the start of my English lit degree, then a year of Middle English and TEFL.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, that's what we had to do, but I saw the light, ditched Eng Lit and concentrated on English Language. Not done that much ME, but Chaucer was well good! And I've not done any TEFL, but some of my friends have and hated it...
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    I hated it too, but it did help me a bit with my languages major.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LadyJade
    I hated it too, but it did help me a bit with my languages major.
    I thought this was just an American expression?
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Australian as well, couldn't remember the Queen's English for it!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah right. Is that like the main part of your degree?
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    Yes, you do a major and a minor. Except I ended up doing two majors because I assed about for so long.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tut tut. Procrastination... A terrible thing. But at least you stand out now! :D
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
    That looks quite an interesting read. Blagsta, as to technology having an effect, that's what needs to be determined. Technological advances have had an effect in the history of the language, printing being a prime example, but we need to look at if current technological advances are going to be long term effects or just a blip in the course of the language. And yeah, you can't look at language (well, you can, but you won't get very far) without some reference to the speakers who use it. What I would like to find out is if all this text message speak, instantaneous interaction without another person being present, will have an effect on the language overall, and since they are such HUGE influences, I would say that unless correction faclities are in plcae, then they will have an effect on how we use language. Not in our lifetime, but definitely in the future. LadyJade, what kind of linguistics did you do?

    I hate to think how, text-messaging will affect the way people speak. Judging by some of the posts I see on here where people use it, it doesn't look good for the future.

    Must be getting old as it takes me ages to work out what they are trying to say more than anything else.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I feel under-qualified with my A'Level in English Language :crying:

    Middle English is wonderful to read, once one gets the hang of it. So much blood, guts, violence and sex- fantastic :lol:
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    JadedJaded Posts: 2,682 Boards Guru
    My tutor had a really earthy Irish accent as well, so it sounded very much that way, all passion and death.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is actually a decent read, the Canterbury tales are a brilliant collection. A pity he couldn't finish them :( But Old English... Don't even get me started on that! And it si scary to think that text messaging will have an effect on language, but with better predictive texting I think things will get better. In the Philipines, there was a huge surge in texting and related textmessage dialect, it even revived the economy, and that kind of trend will continue in other large cities.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BlackArab
    I hate to think how, text-messaging will affect the way people speak. Judging by some of the posts I see on here where people use it, it doesn't look good for the future.

    I think the danger of text messaging is greatly overstates, and always have done. Text messaging, once the lexis is deciphered, actually follows pretty much the same grammatical rules as Standard English, though there are some grammatical processes derived from Creole English.

    The changes will mostly be in terms of lexis, and in particular spelling. I don't particularly see this is a bad thing, just language in evolution- Standard English lost the þ and replaced it with th, and American English went further and lost a lot of silent vowels (e.g colour -> color).

    I actually don't think that the so-called demise of dialectal language is too much to worry about, either. As was shown in studies on Martha's Vineyard, the dialect will gain a resurgence when the locals will once again seek to identify themselves with the locality; when this will happen is anybody's guess, but I think it will eventually happen. It has been shown that people speak the dialect of the people they wish to identify with- convergence and divergence, and hyper-correction. Generally dialects come and go in terms of popularity, and whilst I expect to see Estuary English continue, I don't expect it to maintain it's current kudos indefinitely. People will rebel against it- they always do.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So then... what's wrong with slang?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    some grammatical processes derived from Creole English
    They have grammatical features common to most pidgins and creoles, but in addition they have developed a highly elaborated code of abbreviations and such, which no creole or pidgin would develop. And while it does follow English grammatical practices, it does so in translation.
    Standard English lost the þ and replaced it with th
    Well, it was Old English that lost it.
    Generally dialects come and go in terms of popularity, and whilst I expect to see Estuary English continue, I don't expect it to maintain it's current kudos indefinitely
    It has a kudos? Maybe to the people who speak it, as does (normally) any dialect to the people who speak it. Dialects are linked in part to popularity, but more to power, prestige, and affluence. The line also has to be drawn that text messages would/should only affect written language, not spoken, so I think the talk about dialects is getting our wires crossed a bit. But text messaging effects, it's too early to determine if there are any. A corpus of text messages would have to be complied, as well as a corpus of other non-mobile phone data, and then compared.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
    They have grammatical features common to most pidgins and creoles, but in addition they have developed a highly elaborated code of abbreviations and such, which no creole or pidgin would develop. And while it does follow English grammatical practices, it does so in translation.

    Text messaging speak is still quite clearly English, so to say it is translated into English is stretching a point a bit too far.

    I wasn't saying text mesaging was a pidgin, because it isn't, just that there is some creole grammar in it.

    Abbreviations are purely a change of lexis, in my opinion, rather than a sign of anything more. People don't SPEAK text speak, so it will only have limited impact on the language as a whole.

    Well, it was Old English that lost it.

    Yes. My mistake.

    It has a kudos? Maybe to the people who speak it, as does (normally) any dialect to the people who speak it. Dialects are linked in part to popularity, but more to power, prestige, and affluence.

    Dialect is a bit of a tangent about text messaging, but not about the dmeise of dialectal vocabulary, which is the link GWST posted.

    The Reading survey shows that young people, especially boys, will deviate their language towards what is seen as "cool", and because of the media's impact on culture I think EE has become "cool". The Norwich survey shows that men will deviate their language downwards, away from the highest dialect, and again I think that ties in with media "coolness" creating the spread of EE. As for the immigrant dialects, I think that they use those words as a way of creating a community spirit, and differentiating "outsiders" from themselves using language.

    I guess I mis-applied the word kudos, but EE is seen by many as cool, and EE appears to be stealing many immigrant words.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's what I've been saying, I should've made it clearer. Yeah, text messaging won't have an effect on spoken languages since you can hardly talk in abbreviations. With regards to
    Text messaging speak is still quite clearly English, so to say it is translated into English is stretching a point a bit too far.
    I mean that it is quite clearly different to Standard English, and has different forms of words that are not SE. An aside to this would be to determine whether text messages have universal features. Then we would have to look at other languages. And I would have to agree about the demise of dialectal varieties, it ain't nothing to worry about.
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