Political correctness

Former Member

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Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

because it can make a huge difference to how people view things. Its much more appropriate for someone to say they spent time in a mental health facility, than to say they were incarcerated in a lunatic asylum. The words used can completely change the way something or someone is percieved.

It doesn't, it sounds better but for most people a metal health facility is a lunatic asylum anyway... It's not because they hear an other word that in there mind it does change anything... It's like saying Poo will not have the same effect in someone mind than shit...

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sophia wrote:

No, because I don't see anything as value neutral, I'm tricksy like that.

The questions I'd like you to answer are why wouldn't you show respect to people whose identities and belief you don't share?

And secondly, do you go through life being disrespectful to people who are different to you?

I'm not implying "respect" is value neutral, but how about you tell me what you understand by it, and then using that definition, answer my questions.

I see "respect" as a positive value.

If I don`t share another`s belief then to show respect for that belief would,in my eyes, be dishonest to both myself and the other person.

EVERYONE in life that I have come across has been different to me.So the simple answer to the second question is "No".

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sophia wrote:

So you say that you wouldn't show respect to people whose values you don't share, but that's precisely what respect is. It's an empty concept otherwise. It doesn't require us to share their beliefs, only to recognise the validity and worth of their beliefs for them and for the wider community.

And what if you don't think that their beliefs are beneficial to the wider society? Maybe you even believe that they are detrimental to society? How can you respect them? Does that make you disrespectful or un-PC to say this? I think the only consideration is to respect the individual, and their rights to hold whatever belief they wish. But I don't think you can ever respect everyone's beliefs. Do you respect Hitlers beliefs? I don't. But I respected his right to hold those beliefs (not so much the actual carrying out of them though).

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sophia wrote:

You don't have an obligation to respect unreasonable persons, that is, people who hold beliefs that are particularly obnoxious and detrimental to the existence of a tolerant, liberal state. So we have an obligation to respect the beliefs and identities of jews, muslims etc, but not anti-semites, fundamentalists who advocate acts of violence, etc.

So you're saying that in order to respect a belief, it must share at least some of the values it represents? If that's the case, then how is someone who says they don't respect Islamic values un-PC, but someone saying they don't respect nazi viewpoints isn't? Surely it's equally offensive to that group of people? And I think this is the point behind the whole "political correctness gone mad" idea. It's the idea that certain ideas are beyond criticism because of the groups they're synonomous with, and that anyone bringing up constructive criticism of those ideas is un-PC, and is somehow disrespecting all of the people who label themselves based on those beliefs.

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can i still call NMM a frog?

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morrocan roll wrote:

can i still call NMM a frog?

I dunno, ask him. I think Kermit's okay though.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

can i still call NMM a frog?

Yep, like I give a shit

I like Arrogant Frog Bastard better tho...

Former Member

nihilisticmadman wrote:

Yep, like I give a shit

I like Arrogant Frog Bastard better tho...

good man.

Former Member

But isn't the use of the term bastard insulting to those people who's parents never married?

Former Member

NQA wrote:

But isn't the use of the term bastard insulting to those people who's parents never married?

Bah in France we never really know who is our real father anyway... Haha...

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seeker wrote:

If I don`t share another`s belief then to show respect for that belief would,in my eyes, be dishonest to both myself and the other person.

How exactly though? I don't share my friends' beliefs but I respect them.

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Makoto wrote:

And isn't it chalk board now and not black board? Just because it's got the word black in it doesn't mean to say that it's rasist.

It was renamed to be more accurate, especially as many chalk boards are now in fact green.

In the same way marker boards are known as that not white boards.

:rolleyes:

Getting back to the debate, yes, I think the people who rail against "political correctness" are those who are upset that they are no longer allowed to use racist and discriminatory language in respectable social circles.

I know the resident nutters like Luke (gone a year, and still no more intelligent...perhaps hitting him with a housebrick might help) think that PC is a bad thing- but then again, he thinks that all Muslim people are terrorists, pimps and drug dealers, so he would be against any restriction on his racist bile. I suppose the people who are anti-"PC" on this thread kinda prove the point- they are the people who preach against equality and who preach against immigration. They are the people who preach against the people that "PC" people try to accomodate, so they would obviously be against PC.

Mistakes are made, of course they are, but they don't tend to be that often. It's nothing sinister, its just well-meaning clots doing stupid things, and sometimes its people attempting to cut corners using PC as a convenient excuse. But what's new? When Shipley College banned the use of butter in its canteens, it wasn't because of vegan people (like it claimed), it was because the spreads they used instead were half the price. That's not the fault of the vegan community, is it?

Former Member

nihilisticmadman wrote:

It doesn't, it sounds better but for most people a metal health facility is a lunatic asylum anyway... It's not because they hear an other word that in there mind it does change anything... It's like saying Poo will not have the same effect in someone mind than shit...

I think the advertising industry would beg to differ, actually.

How something is described influences opinions on it a great deal.

That is why advertising copywriters with ability can earn a lot of money. Any old word will not do.

Words with negative connotations reinforce negative opinions.

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Kermit wrote:

It was renamed to be more accurate, especially as many chalk boards are now in fact green.

In the same way marker boards are known as that not white boards.

:rolleyes:

Getting back to the debate, yes, I think the people who rail against "political correctness" are those who are upset that they are no longer allowed to use racist and discriminatory language in respectable social circles.

I know the resident nutters like Luke (gone a year, and still no more intelligent...perhaps hitting him with a housebrick might help) think that PC is a bad thing- but then again, he thinks that all Muslim people are terrorists, pimps and drug dealers, so he would be against any restriction on his racist bile. I suppose the people who are anti-"PC" on this thread kinda prove the point- they are the people who preach against equality and who preach against immigration. They are the people who preach against the people that "PC" people try to accomodate, so they would obviously be against PC.

Mistakes are made, of course they are, but they don't tend to be that often. It's nothing sinister, its just well-meaning clots doing stupid things, and sometimes its people attempting to cut corners using PC as a convenient excuse. But what's new? When Shipley College banned the use of butter in its canteens, it wasn't because of vegan people (like it claimed), it was because the spreads they used instead were half the price. That's not the fault of the vegan community, is it?

in the school i work in, every drywipe board is white and called a whiteboard, i dont see anyone think its stupid, same as the oldblackboard are called just that cause they areblack and a board

Former Member

wheresmyplacebo wrote:

in the school i work in, every drywipe board is white and called a whiteboard, i dont see anyone think its stupid, same as the oldblackboard are called just that cause they areblack and a board

people that twist about that probly need something beating out of them with a big sharp pointy stick

Former Member

sophia wrote:

You seem very confused here tbh.

I see respect as a positive value, but that's not a good definition if it is it? Lots of things are positive, you need to add more substance to that definition otherwise it's meaningless. When I say we ought to show respect to others, including those with different identities and beliefs to our own, I'm not saying that we should agree with all their beliefs or accept their way if life as the correct one.

Rather, I think respect means recognition of that person's identity as valuable to them and to the wider society, and of their right to pursue their particular life plans and goals, even though we don't share them.

So you say that you wouldn't show respect to people whose values you don't share, but that's precisely what respect is. It's an empty concept otherwise. It doesn't require us to share their beliefs, only to recognise the validity and worth of their beliefs for them and for the wider community.

And then you say you aren't disrespectful to people who are different to you, which seems to contradict your first claim that you don't show respect to others because it's somehow dishonest. You don't really seem to know what you think, tbh.

Two different definitions then ? Maybe why we are not in agreement.

I`m curious on your thoughts to this question:

If I fail to say "I love you" to Sophia, does this mean that I hate Sophia ?

Former Member

sophia wrote:

You don't have an obligation to respect unreasonable persons, that is, people who hold beliefs that are particularly obnoxious and detrimental to the existence of a tolerant, liberal state. So we have an obligation to respect the beliefs and identities of jews, muslims etc, but not anti-semites, fundamentalists who advocate acts of violence, etc.

I could further elaborate on which groups ought to be respected and which not, and what it means to be reasonable, but that would be getting rather too deep into the realms of political philosophy for the purposes of this board I think.

There seems to be quite a lot of undefined language in that short statement,as you ermmm recognise later.

To paraphrase a well known saying: The adjective is the mind of the beholder

Former Member

Sofie wrote:

How exactly though? I don't share my friends' beliefs but I respect them.

Care to give me some concrete examples ?

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seeker wrote:

Care to give me some concrete examples ?

The friend I was talking about is Jewish. One of the things he isn't allowed to do is use God's name in vain (for example, saying 'oh my god') and wehn I'm talking to him, I don't use God's name in that wy. I have done it on the odd occasion when I've been with other friends of mine though.

Former Member

To be honest I don't think that falls under the category of PC.

Former Member

Kermit wrote:

I think the advertising industry would beg to differ, actually.

How something is described influences opinions on it a great deal.

That is why advertising copywriters with ability can earn a lot of money. Any old word will not do.

Words with negative connotations reinforce negative opinions.

Well maybe if you use vulgar words for sure, but these days there is a lot of word that were not offensive or with a negative connotations when created that since the political correctness is around are seen as such...

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sophia wrote:

It's not because of political correctness that they're now seen as offensive, it's because they've been taken over by people using them as insults, so that they now have such negative connotations that they could never be considered purely descriptive.

This is true of many words, such as idiot, moron, imbecile, retard etc which were originally used as descriptions of different kinds of mental handicap, but are now only used as insults.

Since when words like fireman, policeman and such are ever been insults tho?

Lunatic asulym I can see how it was always an insult, but I believe the proper word was psychatric establishment anyway...

Didn't know that idiot, moron, imbecile ad retarded were actually use in the medical area before they became insults...

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The proper word was asylum actually, especially in the days when most people were simply imprisoned for life for being mentally ill and locked away. One of the most famous being Bedlam.

The idea of terms like 'Psychiatric Ward' etc is to show that people with mental health problems shouldn't be locked away (as they were for such conditions as getting pregnany without being married) or isolated.

So changing the words has a purpose, a chance to highlight a different perspective or meaning. Words do influence the way people think about things, especially things they don't know.

Terms like fireman, policeman, etc weren't offensive, they are demonstrative, they imply that only men perform the jobs, not women as well. Which could of been seen as why when growing up girls wouldn't consider such jobs, something that has changed dramatically (though media presentation, improved career advice, etc, has all helped, probably more in my opinion - everything plays a part).

Former Member

But the definition of asylum is "An institution for the care of people, especially those with physical or mental impairments, who require organized supervision or assistance." What's wrong with that?

Also I always thought that fireman, policeman and the rest where using man as mankind... or is mankind not politaclly correct anymore either? I guess the human race is better...

But thanks Jim, I get some point a bit more, specially the last paragraph, the rest I am still ot sure that it is really necessary...

I just think there is so much other shit we should concetrate on fixing or making better before words...

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