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Hmm, missing the point somewhat - perhaps intentionally?
Typically higher achieving schools who's admittance is based primarily on a catchment area (although this is only a 3rd place consideration, it is clearly commonly the most important) are located in better (define it by whatever socio-demographic measure you want) areas. The market prices the free education by increased housing prices; the differences are often self-fulfilling such as the peer inputs as mentioned previously.
Schooling obviously isn't a primary consideration for housing choices but it is one of the main economic reasons for choosing a particular area.
I do see your point now.
Yes, certain areas - typically the "council house" type produce lower acheiving people on average, although a few buck the trend. This is most likley because of the "Chav" stereotype portraying of acheivment as "uncool" - which does quite piss me off. Also various other aspects - generally "The Poor" have suffered quite alot through history, with entitlement to better services and quality of life always provided to the more well-off.
Do bear in mind the parents of the poorer pupils will spend more time at work - especially single parent families - trying to support themselves. Therefore less time is spent helping their children learn at home.
And of course, there are the genreal "don't give a shit" wanker type people to consider as well.
I'd generally agree (although there's no reason why higher education should be free). But a voucher scheme wouldn't stop education from being free (or heavily subsidised if parents go for an expensive school).
There is gigantic disparity between different state schools...It might be fairer for everyone to have the 'same education' although that is a goal impossible to achieve.
Almost all private schools are non-profit institutions.
Sounds like opinion and rumour...Any sources or studies confirming that?
Also, on a sort of related point some people seem to think all private schools are 'public schools' - as in of the same ilk as Eton and Harrow. That's not true.
I don't see why I shouldn't either, and I know some kids become socially retarded from private schools but I feel that it is down to the parents to "keep it real" so to speak.
I have also looked at an alternative schooling system where the child is encouraged to be creative and to achieve however they like, rather than being based stringently on academics, which sounds much more healthy imo.
'pay for better teachers than their competitors'
I don't know of private schools ruthlessly rooting out 'better' teachers in other private schools and in the state sector and then entering into bidding wars with other private schools to see who can persuade the 'better' teacher with the most money...Give teachers some credit for a start.
I accept your point partly but I cannot see any difference in state schools. In rich areas state schools have the luxury of richer parents and the potential for generous donations for new projects or parents using business links to help the school.
A Steiner School?
I would love to visit one of these to see how they work properly. They sound quite interesting.
On topic ...
I agree with a lot of what has been said about private schools and how they are "unfair" and the like. However, if we were financially able to, I would definitely send our children to a private school.
The only really decent secondary locally is a Catholic school that is so oversubscibed we, as non Catholics, would not be able to get places for our children.
However, by the time my kids go to secondary school, things may change.
How would they know you're not Catholic, all you'd have to do is learn a few paryers and learn the sign of cross haha!
I think State schools, especially one's with a bad track record should make their 16yr olds get into trades. Either by having the training in the school or setting up links with training centres, a local secondary school to mine does that. There's a vast undershortage of manual workers, a lot of 16yr olds who drop out of school either just be bums or work in shops. They could be doing so much more.
Quite often you need a reference from your priest. I think.
I can't remember much but i use to go to a Catholic school (from nursery to Year 2) but you do have to attend Mass regularly and if (at the school i went to) you wstay on till junior school you'd have to go to Mass i think once a week?
Actually my dad was had to take on extra work and my mum has had to get to extra jobs as well as working full time.
You assume all private schools only accept childern whos familys have a large income, thats not the case. I agree with you that several independant schools only admit wealthy familys with the money going towards the "leather suite in the waiting lounge" bettering there reputation. My school however admits childern inparticular who are dyslexic and/or dyspraxic some have special needs and are statemented and a few who have behaviour problems. The fees don't go towards the facilitys, we don't have any actually, it goes towards the quality of teaching that some of the kids so desperatly need and state schools haven't met up to the requirements of the childs needs. I attended a state junior school, nothing fancy there just a regular school. The teachers didn't belive i was dyslexic, they tried to make me right-handed, they treated my like i was stupid and lazy. Occasionally i had work ripped out of my books because i did it wrong, they didn't explain to me why, i was just told do it again! When i rarely answered a question i nearly always got it wrong and was laughed at by pretty much the students and teachers. My confidence was the size of a pea, going to my school has increased that hugely but i still hate asking questions. I think it's worth every penny that we pay so i can be treated like i should be, get the teaching i deserve and need where i would elsewere, I think that should be avaible in all state schools but sadly, most don't.
Ooh, well I actually did overhear a little controversy over this just last week. The old latin master at school b left because he was old (and smelt of wee) and was replaced in Sept. School a is one of two local schools rivaling b. In september latin teacher at school a is leaving to join b. The mums at school a are in a right flap about it. Poached I tell ya, ha, poached...
ETA: If all the children who are currently educated other than by LEA were to now register for their place in a local state school, I suspect there would be chaos. The LEA receives a figure for each child within their area about 5k pa me thinks. However, the LEA is not spending 5k per child as there are plenty of children educated otherwise- a sudden full upake of places would therefore cause major budget problems... This goes to show that not enough money is allocated per child for education. ( please note, I am no economist and er, have no suggestion as to how to improve this other than the general 'spend less on other things and more on education' type idea)
And what? I became agnostic when I was about 15, I just sat quietly in mass, didn't even go up to get the bread or nothing. It's not the end of the world to just sit and listen to some man talk shit for half an hour.
Thats fine but not all Catholic schools are like that, for example my old one.
lol i know! theres a school near me and all the girls have to wear horrible thick itchy blazers, cream and brown long skirt and think leggings!! what is it with brown? lol
I'd like to apply the first part of your post to the latter, if I may. All catholic schools do not have itchy blazers and floor length skirts... in fact, I'd say catholic school pupils take as much license with skirt length/other uniform policies as students at any other school. If not, more
As for mass at school, I'd say from my personal experience and that of those around me, the pressures in terms of mass, taking the eucharist etc are not heavy as turlough said. I used to sit happily in mass (which was mandatory once a week but could be attended every day if you so wished) seeing it as a better option than being in double maths first thing in the morning, and look at it as an opportunity for my brain to wake up and catch up with the rest of me. Many a friend of mine took it as the perfect opportunity to do their nails etc. I'm the first person to jump on the "hatred for Catholic schools" bandwagon, but I don't like to see them misrepresented. Just as some people on this thread don't like to see the private schools they attended - or support - misrepresented.
Anyway, I'll veer back to the topic of private schools... though they're really not that interesting
I never said all catholic school do, i was just mentioning the one near me.
I can put you in touch with someone who's friend runs one of those in France if you like
And?
Point still stands that you can't be that poor if you can afford to lose £5000 a year out of your budget, extra work or not.
No, I don't.
I assume that they only accept children whose families can pay the bills, and will kick children out who fall into arrears.
That is true.
And actually state schools have a legal requirement to provide for any Special Educational Needs that children have. And most of them manage this admirably, despite the private sector robbing the system of the best teachers and the best facilities.
Would you rather teachers were forced to stay at failing schools teaching disruptive and sometimes violent pupils?
My mum teaches at a private school nowadays, and she says the difference in pupil behaviour makes teaching a pleasure rather than a physically and emotionally draining job. I'd rather she wasn't driven into an early grave by the ruffians at the local comp.
Hang on, explain how exactly would privatising education "vastly increas[e] opportunities for a wide section of society and giving more people a chance to do better for themselves"?
Oh yeah - it would increase opportunties for the only people dis cares about - people with money. Fuck the poor eh dis?
Oh and you call me extremist? You're a nasty piece of work you know that?
you don't? none so blind eh. At my comp in the 80's, a lot of the best teachers left to go teach in private schools as they got more money
I don't understand the question.
He's asking if you think the only reason teachers move to private schools is for financial gain?
I have no idea, I haven't asked every teacher. What I did write however was that a lot of good teachers left my comp to go and teach in private schools because the pay was better. I'm still not sure what point Kentish is trying to make.
Maybe that it's not all to do with money. That in private schools the environment is generally more relaxed, that the students are generally more willing to learn and the teacher can exercise his talent better?
Errrmmm...did you read what I wrote? The teachers who left my school left because the pay was better at private schools. How can I be so sure? Well they made no secret of it, lets put it that way. What other teachers may or may not have done, I don't know.