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Straw - setting a new record?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I couldn't see a thread about Palestine/Israel, surprisingly, so I'll have to start one to ask if Jack Straw isn't the most attrocious cabinet minister of modern times? I've never heard him turn in a less than cringe-inducing performance on the Today programme. Apparently, he's going to tell the Saudi government that they shouldn't fund the Hammas government because he has an obligation to his 'tax payers' not to see their money filtered to an 'organisation that funds terrorism'. Never mind his obligation to tax payers over the money sink that is Iraq. Nor that the Saudi government is unlikely to give a monkeys about UK or European tax payers when they decide whether to fund Hammas or not.
Straw just seems to leap from one absurd pronouncement to another. The last corker was his insistence that the Palestinians had plenty of warning that Western monitors would be withdrawn from a jail in the West Bank, but that the Israelis who raided the place had no clue whatsover.
He'll be a lord in ten years. At the latest.
Straw just seems to leap from one absurd pronouncement to another. The last corker was his insistence that the Palestinians had plenty of warning that Western monitors would be withdrawn from a jail in the West Bank, but that the Israelis who raided the place had no clue whatsover.
He'll be a lord in ten years. At the latest.
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Comments
His attempts at scorn when the object of his desires Condy Rice visited Britain was embarrassing: "Mr Straw described crowds of supporters outside as "remarkable" and dismissed the number of demonstrators as "not large".
"They (protesters) said they were going to get bus loads and bus loads in. Well they didn't do very well," said Mr Straw.
"If they had asked me I could have done better for them."
Notice that to her credit at least Condy herself said she did not mind the protestors and that they were an important part of democracy. Not such thoughts crossed the mind of her devoted slave who thought it was appropriate for a member of the H.M Government to attempt to ridicule a genuine and peaceful protest.
As for his comments about Hamas and the situation in the Middle East, well what would you expect? When was the last time you recall a member of the British government saying as much as a whisper of protest about any act whatsoever committed by the IDF or Israeli government, no matter how murderous or bloody?
No civilised person can possibly justify handing over billions of pounds to a terrorist regime. Until Hamas renounce violence and recognise the State of Israel it is impossible for the Israelis to negotiate with them rendering a negotiated peace impossible. Given that the EU and the US like Israel want peace there is no justification for prolonging the violence by propping up a gang of Islamic fundamentalists that’s ultimate aim is a pogrom of Jews in the region.
The Palestinians have been twice offered a Palestinian state. In the first instance a much larger Palestinian state was offered and a smaller Jewish state. The Zionists gratefully accepted the offer - but the Palestinians rejected it. Later in 1947 the UN Partition Plan would have provided two roughly equal sized states, the Jewish state although slightly larger (55%) mostly dessert. Approved by UN members and joyfully accepted by the Yishuv – the Palestinians rejected the compromise and with the Arabs waged war upon the Yishuv seeking to eradicate the Jewish presence in the region. There could have been two separate states living in peace, the Palestinians today owe their fate to the mistakes of their short-sighted leaders in the 1930s and 1940s.
It’s tragic that the Palestinians haven't learnt from history – instead electing Hamas, a party opposed to any two state solution compromise. The election of Hamas however must not detract from the solution to peace which is two states. With Israel planning further withdrawals from the Disputed Territories if the Palestinians can somehow fulfil their commitment and disarm their terrorist groups progress will be made.
I mean, the locals suffer from such levels of malnutrition, illiteracy, poverty and misery that they make most of Africa look like the pinnacle of wealth and wellbeing.
Unless of course that person is American and the terrorist regime in question begins with 'I' and ends with 'L'.
I read an interesting article actually about that, see here.
Also, UN help to the Palestinians is completely disproportionate to other troubled areas and UN aid to the Palestinian refugees is enormous in comparison to UN aid to other refugees. There's another good link here. Opinionated but no less balanced than your beloved Guardian, a bastion of balanced and impartial reporting on Israel/Palestine.
The headline says all you need to know:
"UNITED NATIONS - The tyrants' club obsessed with Israel, subsidized by Western tax money to defend the honor and pride of the worst tyrannies and dictatorships in the world"
Christ... even the PNAC would be more balanced than that... :eek:
So are you telling me you are NOT going to vote for Labour...?
Is it wrong to deny Hamas money? Or is it just in context with the Iraq war?
Its that money to the legitimate Palestinian government (as decided by the people) is a waste, but the civil war in waiting that is Iraq is somehow OK. Also, Iraq still hasn't managed to create a functioning government and their elections were months ago. Just abit of a double standard.
Are you saying that because the Palestinian government was elected and is legitimate we therefore have some obligation to give money to it? Elected or not the EU and US – Britain being the single biggest donor after the US gives billions in aid to the Palestinians. And the US and EU have a responsibility to their citizens to ensure that aid is directed appropriately. Handing over billions to Hamas – a terrorist group that has committed itself to the destruction of Israel and murdered scores of innocent people is irresponsible. That Hamas was elected is irrelevant – it doesn’t somehow make them good, Hitler was elected too...
No, I'm pointing out there is a double standard that involved. Hamas is not just a terrorist group, as you well know. Our obligation was to give money to the Palestinian government, not Hamas. But if the wrong government is elected, we drop our principles and run. I would like to remind you of two other important things.
1) The money is for the government, not Hamas. Hamas run the government, but they cannot use the money in it for personal uses. Thats what we call corruption. Its like saying giving money to the UK is supporting Labour. We wont be hurting or aiding Hamas (who have their own donors in the Arab world), only hurting the Palestinian people. We're punishing them for voting "wrong". Thats a great fucking example of our democratic spirit.
2) Leave out the Hitler analogy. Hitler was elected, but he had a minority and there was widespread electoral violence. Hamas gained an outright majority through a pretty clean election, about as clean as you can get in the Middle East at least.
Britain supports a two state solution, so does the EU and the US. We support two states, Israel and a Palestinian state living side by side in peace. And with the EU and US we want this to happen through the Roadmap to Peace. I’d say it’s therefore pretty unprincipled to give billions of dollars to a party which has aims completely incompatible with our aims and ambitions of a peaceful two state solution. The international community has repeatedly requested that Hamas renounce violence and terrorism and recognise the State of Israel – when it does that and proves a willing and realistic negotiating partner I will not object to providing financial assistance to it.
Well the Palestinians elected a party committed to violence and terror. I don’t think they should be surprised when we decide not to get blood on our hands by handing over suitcases of cash that could be funding the next suicide bomber killing a family in a cafe or some teenagers having a night out. That said the EU and US have clearly stated that they will endeavour to ensure the Palestinian people do not suffer and ensure aid reaches those that need it.
I don't care how clean it was.
When a government condone acts of terror, making it legitimate, then the government are welcome to drown in their own shit, and shouldn't expect money or help from anyone.
The very principle by which the decades long US tax-payer funding to Israel should be ceased immediately. For those who have any comprehension of consistency of principle that is.
Taking up a discussion based on this statement, is beneath my intelligence. Sorry
The disconnect between presumed intellect and moral proscription is a classic failing of the hardline ideologue.
Clan you’re just as hardline as the most rabid Israeli settler. While myself and Dear Wendy to the best of my knowledge too have the capacity to compromise and accept factual errors or mistakes – an ability actually shared by the present Kadima coalition in Israel and moderate Palestinians – it’s an aptitude you lack, like the fundamentalist 'president' of Iran, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the extreme far-right Jewish settler groups you will never admit you're wrong and you will never accept any compromise solution.
Further, intellect is not the preserve of your viewpoint, it’s outright arrogant as well as fictitious to suggest it is. For you however it’s an unsurprising claim.
Tbh I’m just surprised that an apparently intelligent person such as yourself cannot like most ethicists considering war distinguish between a government and armed forces defending a civilian population against those committed to its destruction and a gang of terrorists that exclusively target innocent people.
I’m glad meanwhile that I support progress in the region – Israel and a Palestinian state, two states living in peace together. I remain disappointed however that your perpetual stomach for hatred towards Israel will never be satisfied unless Israel is destroyed. While you’re consumed with the most extreme hate for one side I support both. I hope one day you'll support the pragmatic and peaceful alternative instead of pursuing fundamentalist fantasies. At least as a seemingly intelligent person it would be refreshing if you talked of a realistic solution for once.
Sorry, wouldn't know. Being that I am not one of those
In truth, the position you espouse is one of nothing more than maintenance of the Zionist domination over not only the region but the very conditions for any political solution. Compromise is not in the agenda of those who have been (and will continue to remain) at the helm of the Israeli state. All pretense to the contrary is merely a rhetorical charade intended to evoke the sympathies of those like yourself who refuse to look beyond the santised mainstream media drivel.
For you to accuse any others of hatred whilst desperately clinging to an ideology founded in bigotted 18th century colonialist disregard for the rights and aspirations of the indigenous inhabitants, organised terrorist acts and political connivances with the major powers throughout the 20th century, and ultimately the institutionalisation of those selfsame terrorist groups (Irgun, Hagganah) into the Labour and Likhud Parties, only highlights your utter refusal to confront the truth of the situation. That you are in good company is merely the testament to the moral and intellectual dishonesty and complacency of the mainstream.
Like all rabid ideologues you claim you want a just settlement whilst wantonly ignoring the actual conditions mandated by Israel for even that supposed "solution" to be achieved. Under such terms there would be no viable Palestinian State, only a reinterpreted subjugation without any true sovereignty. Much the same situation which actually prevails in Iraq despite oft touted claims of restored sovereignty.
No my young deluded nemesis, you offer nothing to the equation but continued suffering for a people who have endured systematic ethnocide in their own land by those who never had any viable claim apart from that enforced at the point of a gun (and the detonation of the King David Hotel).
Your morality is a farce until you acknowledge the selfsame terrorist roots of the state for which you make the most laughable excuses.
Only with the end of the governing Zionist ideology and with it the exclusivistic particularist group superiority around which the state has, from its inception to the present day, operated will any hope for a truly peaceful conhabitation in true pluralistic liberal-democratic fashion be possible. Until that comes to pass you will watch decade upon decade (as many of your elders here have done) as the same lies and false villifications are levelled against the victims rather than the progenitors of this conflict.
Perhaps only time will open your gullible extremist eyes to truth.
:yeees:
Sorry, not completely sure what you're laughing at?
Quoted that statement as it says so much more about you than anyone else on this board to be quite frank.
Hardly surprising Jacq. We certainly wouldnt want you to strain your precious intellect on anything as tedious as critical self assessment.
Exactly.
Therefore, mind telling me what was humoring you?
do you use over complicated dialogue in real life?.....i mean, such as buying a loaf of bread for example?
does the shop keeper want to commit suicide after you have left?
erm when you promise busloads and turn up in handfulls, it does look pityful, regardless of whos side you are on