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Iraq
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Out of curiousity, before the war in Iraq started, how many people were for or against it? What were your arguments for your opinion? Which arguements have changed?
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Still against it.
But now were there, we have to carry on with it, since we can't just leave it in the state it's in at the moment. And even then, I don't really get what happens after that now either. Is it now possible to have a peacuful solution to any dispute with the middle east (i.e. Iran) after this?
I did think the timin was very very wrong though as Afghanistan was a completely unfinished job and still is today.
My reasons for the war had nothing to do with WMD's though, i never thought he had them really, maybe one or two but nothing major, i wanted regime change and to see Saddam pay for the millions of deaths he caused.
...by killing thousands more...
The TRUTH behind our invasion was Saddam's dual affronts to US interests in first nationalising the Iraq oil industry and booting out US petroleum producers and subsequently (and most importantly) his rejection of the petrodollar standard in favour of the Euro standard for all oil sales.
All other considerations, such as the oft repeated "genocides" are nothing more than media fodder, devoid of proper contextualisation (i.e Halabja having been a retaliation against Kurdish forces which were aiding Iranian troop incursions onto Iraq soil during the Iran/Iraq War, an act of high treason which even our own governments would quash with equal disregard for life if perpetrated during a time of war by our own citizens).
Accordingly, both the invasions of Iraq and even that of Afghanistan (however distasteful their internal politics) were wars of unprovoked unilateralist aggression and by our own ratified standards (chiefly Article 2 of the UN charter and the Nuremberg Principles) patently illegal acts.
What is being played out now is an economic conquest by rabid ideologues in Washington (who themselves have twice defrauded true democratic electoral process to gain and maintain power).
The same holds true for present moves against Iran, which has for some time planned to unveil a Euro-based oil bourse in Tehran, which directly threatens the oil market hegemony of the NY and London exchanges.
As for the actual reasons war was brought against Iraq, i do not dispute them. They were clearly nothing to do with Iraq been dangerous, the country was so easily defeated and crushed i think every one can agree they were not threatening anybody at all.
What i am saying is, at the time, when the invasion occured, i supported the actions as a whole. I did not support the timing of those actions as they came 10 years too late in my opinion and should not have occured to Afghanistan was in full reconstruction and reform.
I mean, if we are saying Saddam did nothing that is illegal internationally...Well then we shouldnt hunt and prosecute Nazi war criminals or any dictators at all should. We should allow any ruler of any nation to do as they wish to his people or his neigbouring countries and not stop them or bring them to justice or make any examples. Saddam was mass murderer in is own right and technically speaking the UN should have used force to bring him to justice decades ago. I know there is alot of hypocracy there as it was the USA protecting him and then later Russian protection that kept him in power, but still he should have been arrested.
It is like with Milosovic, no one arrested him, he was handed over by the Serbs who deposed him after they were threatened with sanctions if they did not hand him over. We didnt force him out of power for his crimes and anyone who knows the situation of the Balkans would see how pointless putting him on trial is when all the other Yugolsav states leaders get away with mass murder because they are "allies" of the west.
meaning ...any talk of pulling our anytime soon is utter bollox.
they will be like nothing ever seen before.
guess how it's being paid for ...with iraqi oil revenues.
so iraqi oil is already texas oil in reality.
the iraqi people ...they was robbed.
the middle east as a whole ...be afraid ...
Obviosuly.
Erm, I am NOT againsts pulling right out now - that'd be stupid. But we need to change what we are doing.
I would not oppose pullnig out, im torn over it - It would be stupid, showing defeat, but I think it will end up like Vietnam if we stay.
Its such a cock-up this war - We are damned if we do and damned if we don't - we either show failiure and defeat by pulling out, or enforce a system with ruthless brutality if we stay. The current methods are failing... I daresay more authority will be given to troops to do as they see fit.
we have destroyed a full employment countries infrastucture.
shopping centres to rival londons.
traffic jams to rival londonds.
religupous tolerance to rival londonds.
nighe clubs. strip joints.
dance dj's.
saddam was hated by the idlamist extremists the world over for being so westernised.
gtreat universities and great industyry.
everything the extremists hated ...the vbest thing the west had ...
especialy against iran ...but one family ...the bush hierachy ...failed again and again ...to understand anything but the dollar and profiti
deafeat has nothing to do with it ...and the international comiunitie of criminals don't actuasly see defeat as us plebs do.
any talk of defeat or withdrawl ...is newspaper shite as far as the pentagion and ythe shiteghoiuse are concernercn
building the worlds first super military bases ...paid for with iraqi oil revenue ...says much more than all the shite the media carry.
hic!
This is true, Saddam was rather liberal compared to other states! but the terrorists would claim it as a victory, and I dont want this. I think we should at least try to give them a democracy. if they don't like it, then they can vote for someone who opposes it! if the majority oppose it, so be it. That is the idea of it. (I know it'll probalby be set up all rigged, but hey... we shouldn't do that.
I think we have a responsibility, as we created the mess, we should clean it up! Also, we cannot back down to terrorism. Itd be like setting the IRA free, no different. We should at least help them get their own security forces up. (Notice Saddam managed to police it well in that respect? No problems for him, like now! Althoguh we know why.. :chin: )
During the conflict, I decided to support it simply because British troops were involved.
Shortly afterwards, I started to regret supporting it and I'm now a fierce critic of the war.
there was a rthriving biz comuntity and more or less full employment and prosperity ...then sadman =decided to ditch the dollar and ametrica ...full stop.
the place was thriving and going places ...how would you feel as an iraqi ...now theres no electicity and fresh water ....
Point at end of hte day is - better to be free with nothing or be provided for in a tyranical dictatorship? .... im scared to say, i'd chose the latter! It seems wrong with my liberal/right western upbringing to say this... but I think it is.
As an Iraqi, i'd feel disapointed, but I don't think we can just leave a mess... it's our mess. You make the mess you clean it in my book! So we should al least do so! It's our duty to at least ensure hte saftey of these people and set up a wroknig government after we destryoed one.
But i should say im totally buzzed right now on painkillers the doctor gave me so maybe im wrong!
One thing i don't actually understand is Israel's support for the war - this whole bloody fiasco only serves to further undermine their position.
Half the stuff that 'happened' was gov propaganda, and a lot of the shit that goes on there the media doesn't get to report... I'm not gonna say saddam was a good person but george bush is just as bad.
So.. against the war before and after
Yep. But from a view based on the long-term security and viability of the Israeli state, i'd say kicking Saddam out of power makes the proposition of an Islamic khalifate more plausible as i don't see democracy being established in iraq...the only order i can see emerging from the chaos there is one of hardline Islam, which is obviously a far greater threat to Israel than the secular decadence of Baathist Iraq...
Then again, all that matters is profitability covering the life-span of the ultra-rich.
The PNAC is shrewd and ruthless, but ideologues have historically suffered from a significant myopia regarding the consequences of their plans. When those plans are based on a continual stream of lies, they become a neverending exercise in crisis management.
Either they will implode on their own or fall prey to some organised uprising by those with nothing left to lose. Either way, they will cause alot more damage and suffering at home and abroad before that day comes.
Doesn't mean it was done properly though.
Quite. The UN was a great idea, that is practically US controlled.
Note how they ignore China and US human rights abuses... but pick on Cuba? Wtf? The UN is a good intentioned thing, but far to US controlled.
By the way did anyone else see the fight between Josh Lynam and Toby Zeigler on the west wing? Was so girlie.
As for what we do now? God only knows, maybe go cap in hand to the other Western countries and beg for forgiveness and help? Though I cant see that happening.