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Police get away with murder- again

Story.

I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with the SO19 strike, either...

Absolute disgrace, but hey, we should be used to that from the police by now.
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so basically what they're saying is that we're at the mercy of their whim, if we are deemed to be posing a threat i.e. carrying a table leg or running for our trains, then 7 bullets in the head is understandable surely......?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The repercussions of this will be terrible:
    In a statement, the Crown Prosecution Service said: "The CPS has concluded that the prosecution evidence is insufficient to rebut the officers' assertion that they were acting in self defence.

    "We have also concluded that the threat which they believed they faced made the use of fatal force reasonable in the circumstances as they perceived them."

    So basically, any cop from now on can happily blast your brains into high orbit safe in the knowledge that all he has to say is "he made a threatening movement/reached into his pocket/scratched his crotch/got a pack of cigarettes out (delete as appropriate) and it was my belief he was going to produce a weapon and shoot me" to get away scot-free."

    Fucking wonderful... :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have long held that the safest haven for homocidal sociopaths is amongst the ranks of the police. Those, that is, who are not clever enough or rich enough to ascend to positions in government.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have long held that the safest haven for homocidal sociopaths is amongst the ranks of the police. Those, that is, who are not clever enough or rich enough to ascend to positions in government.

    I agree, but think the cause is reversed. Being policemen or in charge makes you a sociopath.

    All the normal rules of human behaviour are removed for these people i.e. you piss me off I slap you, walk away, stop trading with you etc. So they stop being human.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apollo_69 wrote:
    so basically what they're saying is that we're at the mercy of their whim, if we are deemed to be posing a threat i.e. carrying a table leg or running for our trains, then 7 bullets in the head is understandable surely......?

    ... if eyewitnesses have said you are carrying a shotgun, if the people who have called the Police are so in fear that they have locked themselves in a pub and turned off the light, if you have previously used a shotgun in the execution of a crime...

    People, this isn't the Brazillian here, let's remember that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have to disagree again MoK.

    If the man had been "wielding" a shotgun in plain view and with potential for imminent injurious discharge of such a weapon, then the officers would have a legitimate claim to self defence. Yet it should be stressed that responsible law enforcement would warrant some clear warning (i.e. "drop the weapon and get on the ground") prior to any resort to lethal force.

    This is simply another in a long-running (and to be increasingly expected) cases of violence by the state and its institutionalised brute squads against its own residents/citizens. When such actions are not condemned as akin to any other act of murder by one citizen upon another - simply because of the "in-club" status of the perpetrators - and subsequently punished to the full extent of the law, the concept of the "rule of law" again proves to be empty rhetoric. The only operative principle they adhere to is "might makes right".
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have to disagree again MoK.

    If the man had been "wielding" a shotgun in plain view and with potential for imminent injurious discharge of such a weapon, then the officers would have a legitimate claim to self defence. Yet it should be stressed that responsible law enforcement would warrant some clear warning (i.e. "drop the weapon and get on the ground") prior to any resort to lethal force.

    What a load of bollocks. So if I hide my shotgun in a paper bag I can't be shot? The 'Yellow card' for Northern Ireland (and I assume police work on something similar) is basically a warning has to be given as feasible. However you can shoot without warning if you reasonably believe your life or anothers is in imminent danger.

    If I'd be called out for someone with a shotgun and this person then turns towards me and seems to be holding a shotgun I am going to shoot. To do otherwise risks myself, my colleagues and members of the public.

    To many comments on here are not looking for any sort of justice, but revenge and that 'someone must pay'.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bollocks back at ya NQA. Making excuses as expected I see for the actions of those with the "badges" that you obviously defer to so readily. That your supposed scenario is based on an extreme reference to NI factional warfare is also hardly surprising.

    Indeed the posts here are largely demanding "accountability" and consistent application of legal principle in holding the two men (and all such abusers of authority like them) criminally culpable for gunning down an unarmed pedestrian.

    Nowhere, other than the officers claims, is it suggested that the man made any threatening gesture nor brandished the object he carried in any menacing fashion. Therefore, the absence of the requisite verbal challenge by the officers only increases their likely homocidal intent toward the victim.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That your supposed scenario is based on an extreme reference to NI factional warfare is also hardly surprising.

    Not a supposed scenario or an extreme reference - but the real life rules under which the army operated in Northern Ireland - which given the majority of police on the British mainland remain unarmed, is probably the most real world example within the UK of the forces of law and order being routinely armed and (less routinely) meeting other people who were armed and willing to kill them.

    Indeed the posts here are largely demanding "accountability" and consistent application of legal principle in holding the two men (and all such abusers of authority like them) criminally culpable for gunning down an unarmed pedestrian.

    Given that this has been going on since 1999, has gone through the corners court (twice) and sevral investigations with countless man hours investigating and there is still no evidence that they acted in anything, but percieved self-defence suggests that they are not 'accountable'. sometimes that happens

    Nowhere, other than the officers claims, is it suggested that the man made any threatening gesture nor brandished the object he carried in any menacing fashion. Therefore, the absence of the requisite verbal challenge by the officers only increases their likely homocidal intent toward the victim

    Unfortunately the evidence against them is also lacking.
    Making excuses as expected I see for the actions of those with the "badges" that you obviously defer to so readily.

    Damn right. My sympathies are always towards the poor bloody infantry and their police equivalents who are out there at risk of their lives, rather than those who sit in their comfy chairs pontificating about things over which they know nothing.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've got to agree with NQA and MoK. This is nothing like the Tube execution. The split-second decision to shoot a suspect has to be based to the level of danger posed by the perpetrator. In this case, it has always been obvious that the guy was acting aggressively towards the police and wielding the table leg as if it were a gun.

    Why would you expect not to get shot in that situation?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How was the guy behaving aggressively? Other than having a thick Irish accent and being pissed? Not exactly the profile of a terrorist is it? Unless we're suggesting someone with an Irish accent has a good chance of being a terrorist...

    And given how closed they were to him, if he had been wielding the table leg at the coppers they would have very clearly seen it was a table leg, not a shotgun.

    Still smells of negligent trigger-happiness to me...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This case was well before any terrorists existed. The investigation has been going on for years. Again, it is a split-second decision and the police have to make that decision based on the scene in front of them.

    I'd rather we didn't need any armed police at all, but sadly people do occasionally go on the rampage with a gun.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    How was the guy behaving aggressively? Other than having a thick Irish accent and being pissed? Not exactly the profile of a terrorist is it? Unless we're suggesting someone with an Irish accent has a good chance of being a terrorist...

    And given how closed they were to him, if he had been wielding the table leg at the coppers they would have very clearly seen it was a table leg, not a shotgun.

    Still smells of negligent trigger-happiness to me...

    They might not have thought he was a Provo, but still a drunk with a shotgun is probably not someone who should be allowed to wander the streets.

    Unless the police had x-ray eyes I'm not sure that it matters how close they were to him - they still couldn't see through the plastic bag (shooting shotguns through bags is not an unknown tactic - it reduces the amount of forensic evidence on you)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Once again, "holding a plastic sack containing a wooden table leg" is a far cry from "brandishing" any sort of weapon or easily mistaken facsimile thereof.

    Keep on making excuses for murderers, your military training has clearly indoctrinated you well.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Excusing murderers? No, that would be your job when apologising for terrorist actions across the globe.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Excusing murderers? No, that would be your job when apologising for terrorist actions across the globe.

    And yours when you support soldiers.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I don't excuse the actions of terrorists since it is our own respective governments who are the most prolific supporters and perpetrators of terrorism around the globe.

    Try again, oh inebriated one. :lol:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    your military training has clearly indoctrinated you well.


    Yes, it trained me that if someone is a percieved threat to me or my men to shoot first and more accurately than the other guy. Your watching of cowboy films has served you less well in the realities of facing someone who is believed to be armed.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, it trained me that if someone is a percieved threat to me or my men to shoot first and more accurately than the other guy. Your watching of cowboy films has served you less well in the realities of facing someone who is believed to be armed.

    Actually it has trained you, and clearly so, to perceive threat around every corner, to consider anyone they tell you is an "enemy" as precisely that without question and thus to perpetrate aggression even on those who have in no way aggressed you (or "your men").

    In keeping with such indoctrinated non-thought, you readily defend your authoritarian taskmasters and any of their multitudinous instruments/institutions of repressive control regardless of a long and rich history of abuses of power on their part.

    It all comes back to the same point ive recently made in other threads on "consistent application of principle". The very acts for which you have been incited to condemn other nations, leaders, or perchance individuals are wholly and regularly excused by you and your ilk when perpetrated by our own nations, leaders or agents thereof (including you and "your men").

    Nothing remotely heroic about it, though the military mind has been drilled to perceive any action on its part as "patriotic" or in defence of the liberties of the "ungrateful masses", blah blah blah.

    The day your own or my own soil is invaded by another force sufficient in size and capability to potentially impose its will upon the "the masses", you can wave your flag and call your armed struggle justified. Until then, what we see today is the consistent recurrence of the same incremental advance of fascist authoritarian control, at home and abroad, that prior generations also sought to justify until it was fully entrenched.

    Time to shake off your robotic allegiance to a corrupt state system and show that you actually do care about the welfare of the multiude of your countrymen more than the mere perpetuation of the status quo for the elite few.

    Btw, never could stand cowboy films, thanks.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have to disagree again MoK.

    Like that's a surprise :p
    If the man had been "wielding" a shotgun in plain view and with potential for imminent injurious discharge of such a weapon, then the officers would have a legitimate claim to self defence.

    So a shotgun won't work if it's in a bag?

    This gentleman apparently had used a shotgun during a robbery on a previous occasion. The police were told that he had one in his possession by witnesses. When challeged he appear to aim the "weapon" he was carrying at the officers.

    Now tell me, in their shoes what precisely would you do next?

    Would you wait until he fired first, even though it could mean your death?
    This is simply another in a long-running (and to be increasingly expected) cases of violence by the state and its institutionalised brute squads against its own residents/citizens. When such actions are not condemned as akin to any other act of murder by one citizen upon another - simply because of the "in-club" status of the perpetrators - and subsequently punished to the full extent of the law, the concept of the "rule of law" again proves to be empty rhetoric. The only operative principle they adhere to is "might makes right".

    You make me laugh, I'm sure you don't mean to. Blagsta thinks that Born Slippy froths at the mouth when he writes. When you write pieces like that I wonder if you do too...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Other than having a thick Irish accent and being pissed? Not exactly the profile of a terrorist is it?

    NB I don't think there is any evidence that the man was drunk.
    And given how closed they were to him, if he had been wielding the table leg at the coppers they would have very clearly seen it was a table leg, not a shotgun.

    Yet they shot him anyway. Why? Please explain what their motive was...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think they had a motive as such. I think they were incompetent, neglient or trigger happy (or a bit of all three).

    There has to be a balance between protecting the public and protecting yourself. Nobody is denying that. But I think that the balance was not struck here, by a long mile. I think the coppers used the wrong procedures and as a result they shot the man needlessly.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BTW, he was Scottish not Irish [although drunken scottish probably is the same as Irish]. The 2nd coroner's court returned a verdict of unlawful killing.

    BUT, The CPS can only look at the evidence they have, and the only evidence they have are the two police officers that shot him. What do we know what happened? And if you are told that someone has a shotgun, you are going to be a bit more trigger happy if he starts waving it about or whatever happened on that day.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hurrah

    From the mob that want to string up little kids because "if you can do wrong then you're responsible enough to take the rap"

    comes

    "cops cannot be held responsible for their behaviour"

    The fact that he'd used a shotgun before is irrelevant - the cops who shot him didn't know who he was - they lied about why they shot him and to claim that the only evidence is theirs is absurd - the second inquest managed to find enough evidence to get an "unlawful killing" verdict.

    Little kids bad - big cops good.

    *yawn*
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i thought that they brought in tazar guns to stop this issue from being miss-used by the police force?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From today's Independent:

    Shot dead by coppers = 30
    Coppers convicted = 0



    Someone is having a laugh... :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nice figure. Look at that list, how many would you say - based on the information there - should be considered "murder" then?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From the mob that want to string up little kids because "if you can do wrong then you're responsible enough to take the rap"

    Please identify which of the users who have posted on this thread want to "string up little kids". Quotes would be nice.

    My guess is that you cannot do that.
    "cops cannot be held responsible for their behaviour"

    Well, you've used quotation marks, so who are you quoting?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Or to put it another way, MoK...

    Based on the track record of police establishment whitewashes and coverups for homocidal actions by officers, how many in that list are likely to be based solely on bogus excusatory claims of the officers in question?

    Expecting the CPS or the police to "investigate" wanton abuses of power by their own agencies is like asking the IRA to investigate their own bombings. Hardly any manner of unmasking the truth.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I doubt any of them could be considered murder. About half of them could easily be considered manslaughter though- namely those in which the suspect was unarmed.

    We don't shoot to kill in this country for simply running away or having previous convictions. About half the people on that least appeared to have no firearms or be a serious threat to the policemen.
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