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US ambassador won't pay the congestion charge

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4352520.stm

Like Livingstone has said, the charge is not different from a road toll in America- which British diplomats are obliged to pay.

Nice to see the London ambassador of the richest nation in the history of mankind (and the Germans as well) ignoring the laws and regulations of his hosts.

Is that what they mean by special relationship?

Edited to add the Germans to the list.
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Comments

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good for him.

    It is a tax, by the by.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No diplomats pay parking fines, so whats the difference?

    I'm guessing he doesnt want his car registration on the computer.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not any more of a tax than a road toll is.

    It is a charge, for driving within a congested city at peak times. No more, no less.

    Incidentally, it is not just the ambassador himself we're talking about here (which one could understand being exempt by reciprocal agreement between nations). There are up to 100 cars driven by all sorts of minions and clerks. Why the hell should they be exempt?

    Livingstone should tow & crush the cars in question.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not any more of a tax than a road toll is.

    Road tolls are also taxes. :)
    It is a charge, for driving within a congested city at peak times. No more, no less.

    Legally, it's a tax. :p
    Why the hell should they be exempt?

    Because everyione should be.
    Livingstone should tow & crush the cars in question.

    Nice. Are you always so anti-social or is it just when you want something?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I met the last ambasador (not this one) at a function once, nice bloke if a little reserved.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    It's not any more of a tax than a road toll is.

    It is a charge, for driving within a congested city at peak times. No more, no less.

    Incidentally, it is not just the ambassador himself we're talking about here (which one could understand being exempt by reciprocal agreement between nations). There are up to 100 cars driven by all sorts of minions and clerks. Why the hell should they be exempt?

    Livingstone should tow & crush the cars in question.



    other than the western extention which is a waste of time, and increasing the price by 60%
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Road tolls are also taxes.



    Legally, it's a tax. :p
    Is it? Can you provide a link? No that I would doubt you or anything but I understood it is a charge.



    Because everyione should be.
    No they shouldn't. Congestion Charge is a wonderful thing. It would not be necessary if central London hadn't been a completely clogged-up, choking hellhole with far too many cars in it.

    Given that many of those journeys are not necessary at all something has to be done to discourage as many people as possible from driving into central London. It's either that or we go the Italian way and simply ban one half of all cars from entering London every other day.


    Nice. Are you always so anti-social or is it just when you want something?
    The only anti-social people are those who break the law and refuse to pay fines.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    I met the last ambasador (not this one) at a function once, nice bloke if a little reserved.
    Did he offer you one of these?

    rocher_ce.gif





    :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, but he did serve excellent vodka, its a type of Smirnoff which I've not seen anywhere else, its really rather good.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is it? Can you provide a link? No that I would doubt you or anything but I understood it is a charge.

    Have a quick shufti -

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:tax

    Is tax.

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aservice+charge&meta=

    Is service charge.

    Notice the bits about being for a service and the voluntary nature of one and not the other. Also not receiving adequate service means you don't have to pay a service charge and there is a person providing a service.

    For my own amusement I include extortion -

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aextortion&meta=
    The only anti-social people are those who break the law and refuse to pay fines.

    Nah, bollocks. What's the factual difference between a government employee and a robber?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    No, but he did serve excellent vodka, its a type of Smirnoff which I've not seen anywhere else, its really rather good.

    Surely that's a bit unpatriotic - shouldn't he be serving Jack Daniels?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Surely that's a bit unpatriotic - shouldn't he be serving Jack Daniels?

    I had to ask for it, it was a wine and nibbles event really. I said can I have a vodka and orange and they came back with two glasses, one orange and one vodka.

    And yes, they were serving some American beer but also Becks too.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    He should pay. Everyone, regardless of who they are, should pay it.

    Or, alternatley, scrap it. We already pay Road Tax.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its another fucking tax on where we can and cannot go.

    Good on the bloke for not paying it - excellent to see an American sticking 2 fingers up at that gimp Livingstone.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Have a quick shufti -

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:tax

    Is tax.

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aservice+charge&meta=

    Is service charge.

    Notice the bits about being for a service and the voluntary nature of one and not the other. Also not receiving adequate service means you don't have to pay a service charge and there is a person providing a service.

    For my own amusement I include extortion -

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aextortion&meta=
    But aren't taxes always either deducted from one's earnings or added to a payment? Whereas a charge or a fee can be a 'stand-alone' amount not linked to any specific earning or expense.

    Methinks that (legally at least) the US embassy hasn't got a leg to stand on.

    That said, our spineless PM will no doubt step in behind the scenes if he has to, to stop TFL outrageously trying to make US officials obey the law like everyone else.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its another fucking tax on where we can and cannot go.
    One Londoners voted for. So what's your problem? Move to London and vote for someone who is against it at the next election, if you are so concerned about it.
    Good on the bloke for not paying it - excellent to see an American sticking 2 fingers up at that gimp Livingstone.
    Have you sent for your Green Card yet?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do they have barriers on US toll roads?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Usually, yes. You have to pay either on entrance or on exit, to either a machine or a man in a booth.

    Trying to drive through without paying would likely result in your car being reported and you having an umpleasant encounter with the police. Not advisable.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But aren't taxes always either deducted from one's earnings or added to a payment?

    Nope. Car tax, driving licence, passports etc are all examples of tax where you get something back. The thing that makes something a tax or not is whether it's

    1) Based on you merely being geographically located somewhere.

    2) Involuntary. That is it's an enforced burden.

    If you get something back from the money that is violently removed from you then it doesn't change the basic nature of the arrangement.

    Now we can go around the mulbury bush about whether it's a good thing yadda yadda but the congestion charge is still a tax. It's even deductible. You can claim it off your employer.
    Methinks that (legally at least) the US embassy hasn't got a leg to stand on.

    They do.

    The reason that the government can do what the fuck it likes is because in english law the queen owns everything. We merely get equitable title to our goods and chattels and hence are liable to taxation. As the cars and people are the property of a foreign sovereign - the president of the US, they aren't liable. As Ken's legal people will tell him at some point.

    Anyway, who do you think is going to pay for any bill that's presented in the end? Some poor bastard accross the pond will get robbed to pay it. Not really worth it, imho.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its another fucking tax on where we can and cannot go.

    No it isn't. It's a tax, but it doesn't restrict your travel at all.

    It's all about choices, you can choose to drive through London and pay the charge, or you can go by Tube and pay a charge or you can take one of those private bus thingies and pay a charge.

    And as an aside, it actually penalises the poor if anyone. The rich can just have the roads to themselves as they can afford the charge easier...
    Good on the bloke for not paying it - excellent to see an American sticking 2 fingers up at that gimp Livingstone.

    And I'm sure you would support the use of diplomatic immunity for other crimes as well then, non?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    2) Involuntary. That is it's an enforced burden.

    Except it isn't.

    I've travelled through London on several occasions recently. Not once have I paid the congestion charge.

    Of course I volunteered to not take my car through... TBH it's easier to use the wonderful (public owned, Matadore) tube system.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Livingstone should tow & crush the cars in question.
    I think he should just tow and crush any car that goes into Central London during congestion charge hours. I still don't understand why anyone would want to drive into that city at such times.

    But the US has form when it comes to ignoring rules and regulations, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
    Of course I volunteered to not take my car through... TBH it's easier to use the wonderful (public owned, Matadore) tube system.
    Wonderful? Really? I'm no Londoner, but I know that there's been some trouble on the Tube recently. I understand that last Wednesday, there were some failures of an emergency braking system on the Northern line and that some drivers refused to drive the trains as a result. I also know that the company that runs the Northern line has failed to reach any of the targets it has been set this year. Sadly, the Tube is far from being wonderful.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Except it isn't.

    You are going to have to explain this for me I think.

    Your reasoning makes no sense.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Apparently the Germans are also refusing to pay arguing the same point as the Americans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4352520.stm

    So Matadore, what's going to be? Are you glad that a German is "raising to fingers" to Livingstone? Or outraged that a bloody Kraut is ignoring the laws of Great Britain?

    Pick one...

    ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Apparently the Germans are also refusing to pay arguing the same point as the Americans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4352520.stm

    So Matadore, what's going to be? Are you glad that a German is "raising to fingers" to Livingstone? Or outraged that a bloody Kraut is ignoring the laws of Great Britain?

    Pick one...

    ;)

    But are you also going to amend your title and the first post?

    I also suspect they're not the only ones refusing to pay - half the embassies world wide spend more effort on arguing over road fines and rent than they do representing their countries.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    But are you also going to amend your title and the first post?

    I also suspect they're not the only ones refusing to pay - half the embassies world wide spend more effort on arguing over road fines and rent than they do representing their countries.
    Fair point NQA. I have amended the first post and tried to amend the title of the thread, but it won't change it. It only changes the bold 'headline' thing appearing above the post.

    With regard to the unpaid fines, yes all embassies do it but they claim diplomatic immunity against the offence commited. I guess Ken is trying to make people pay so the offence doesn't get commited in the first place (which could not be done with fines obviously due to their unpredictability.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    You are going to have to explain this for me I think.

    Your reasoning makes no sense.

    It's a voluntary thing, just like TV Tax is voluntary as is Road Tax.

    You have choices here.

    Don't take you car into London, don't watch TV and don't have a car. Face it, they are all "luxuries" anyway...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's a voluntary thing, just like TV Tax is voluntary as is Road Tax

    The actions which cause the charge are voluntary, the charge itself isn't negotiable. The voluntary nature of the charge is not related to what it's charged for or spent on once taken. They are seperate issues.
    You have choices here.

    Not about whether the charge does or does not exist, making it involuntary.
    Don't take you car into London, don't watch TV and don't have a car. Face it, they are all "luxuries" anyway...

    You see this is where you lose me. What have my actions as regards driving my car around different areas or spending my money on a TV got to do with anybody else?

    I can see someone has said that they are related, but I want facts, not opinions. Factually, how are they related?

    Simple question - can the charge be negotiated or refused?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its not a tax - its a charge on the use of roads (I don't think the TV licence is a tax either though I suspect embassies don't pay that either).

    The whole diplomatic immunity thing is way out of control. It was supposed to be to stop diplomats being arrested by kings who were pissed of about their countries or to stop them being falsely arrested for espionage (or even correctly arrested). It wasn't about dodging your parking fines or allowing you to shoplift with impunity.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you own one of those cars powered by something other than petrol, I don't think you pay it either.

    It wouldn't be too bad if 75% of the takings from the charge didn't go towards paying for the damn thing in the first place. I don't think people would mind it as much if more money went towards improving public transport into London, and improving the roads themselves.

    But I live nowhere near London, so I don't care.
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