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why patriotism scares me.....
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Been meaning to do a thread on this for a while, and in light of the 9/11 sig thread and me having hours to kill at work why not..........so, we all know how patriotic the americans are, and one might say that's not a bad thing, to be proud of your country and all........in news discussions after the london bombings i heard a lot of political commentators say that the problem with british muslim youth is that they have no national identity or loyalty, they don't really feel british, and that what was needed was some kind of campaign to make everyone feel a lot more patriotic about our great nation, that we should be more like america in this respect.......and these remarks were greeted with applause on newsnight, question time, etc.........in turn this prompted a few politicians to come out and say things like if you support the indian or pakistani cricket team instead of the english then what are you doing in this country? (maybe not quite so overtly, but you know what i'm getting at).........
personally i don't feel any great connection with the uk, i'm not a big flag waver, you know how some people say 'i'd go to war and die for my country'.........me, nah i'd leave the country......now i'm half german/indian so maybe that has something to do with it, but i've been raised my whole life here and germany and india don't really feel like my motherland either, culturally i am british........anyways......my point is that i am very perturbed when people suggest the solution to all our problems is to have some kind of patriotic initiative in school or something, because to me that stinks of hitler youth.........i'm serious, the idea that your country and the state comes before anything else, that you should get behind them 100%...........in america it's actually quite bad, the news commentators on fox during the iraq war went so far as to say that you may have your disagreements, but once your country goes to war if you don't like it, you should SHUT UP..........now over here laws are being passed where democratic dissent can be silenced under the threat of being labelled a terrorist, a traitor, or what have you...........i feel we are heading ever more quickly towards a fascist state where you cannot freely express your views, and the government is doing what it can to eliminate real discussion..........do you think the problem with our disillusioned youth is because they aren't patriotic enough, or because noone fucking listens to us, or that our democracy stinks and we feel helpless to change anything.........your views please......
personally i don't feel any great connection with the uk, i'm not a big flag waver, you know how some people say 'i'd go to war and die for my country'.........me, nah i'd leave the country......now i'm half german/indian so maybe that has something to do with it, but i've been raised my whole life here and germany and india don't really feel like my motherland either, culturally i am british........anyways......my point is that i am very perturbed when people suggest the solution to all our problems is to have some kind of patriotic initiative in school or something, because to me that stinks of hitler youth.........i'm serious, the idea that your country and the state comes before anything else, that you should get behind them 100%...........in america it's actually quite bad, the news commentators on fox during the iraq war went so far as to say that you may have your disagreements, but once your country goes to war if you don't like it, you should SHUT UP..........now over here laws are being passed where democratic dissent can be silenced under the threat of being labelled a terrorist, a traitor, or what have you...........i feel we are heading ever more quickly towards a fascist state where you cannot freely express your views, and the government is doing what it can to eliminate real discussion..........do you think the problem with our disillusioned youth is because they aren't patriotic enough, or because noone fucking listens to us, or that our democracy stinks and we feel helpless to change anything.........your views please......
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fox news doesn't speak for the people, but then isn't the purpose of any news report to inform the reader with the facts and let them make their own decision, not to outright tell the viewer what to think and do.......? this is the big problem with the media, especially in america........
say what? i asked why are british youth disillusioned, in extreme cases to the point where some would contemplate bombing their own people...........?
Well in the case of the bombers I wouldn't call it being dissillusioned although that is probably part of it. Youth are disillusioned because we're learning slowely that our 'democracies' aren't all they're cracked up to be. But maybe I am being overly simplistic.
Having civic pride is important, I think- if people aren't proud of where they live then they are not going to look after it. Which is why we have sink estates.
But, as usual, everyone goes about it the wrong way. If people are not socially franchised- that means having employment and not living in poverty- then they will not have pride in the community that is not letting them in. The reason why gangs flourish is because they provide a community that the rest of us do not. Force people out of the mainstream because of poverty and unemployment and people will turn to crime, vandalism and anti-social behaviour.
Instead of helping people, and acting in a socially aware manner, people think that ASBOs and flag-waving will magic everything away.
Respect and pride are earned, not an inherent right. Treat the young and poor like dirt- which is what this government, like many before it, does- and they will treat "society" like dirt. An ASBO and a call to be "British" (whatever the heck that means) won't solve anything unless people are given a reason to respect and be proud of where they live.
"There is nothing more dangerous than to build a society with a large segment of people in that society who feel that they have no stake in it, who feel that they have nothing to lose. People who have stake in their society, protect that society, but when they don't have it they unconciously want to destroy it."
Martin Luther King
hence why you will see more prisons being built in 'democratic' countries, and more authoritarian rules put in place to justify suppression and oppression......
"Those conservative people who stridently declare their patriotism and say that all liberals are traitors--I wonder what they think patriotism is about. They seem to think it's about attacking anyone who thinks that America has ever done anything questionable ever. I guess that's easier than actually doing anything to help our country.
I think patriotism is about making your country your family. Which means you want to take care of it and help out those members who are not doing so well.
When someone in your family has a drug problem, you don't want to stick your family member in jail for 80 years. Instead, you'd want to get them help. When someone in your family gets pregnant, you give them a hand. When someone in your family loses their job, you do whatever you can to get them through the rough time. Most importantly, when someone in your family is in trouble, you care.
I care about my fellow Americans. And I think that makes me much more of a patriot than someone who sticks a "Proud to be American" sticker on their car while simultaneously chanting "personal responsibility" instead of helping out their fellow Americans."
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country "