new/old definition of citizenship. circa 1800's

Former Member

I came across this idea of citizenship from the 1800's when someone asked Abraham Lincoln about letting so many immigrants into America.

He said: some people view being an American as a certificate of ancestry...when it is an agreement to uphold certain ideals.

I wonder if we all keep that focus in the West...whether it's being French, or being British or being American...maybe we could contain terrorism without becoming fearful/hateful and losing the things that the West should be proud of. Yeah, I'm idealistic. :yes:

Former Member

atpeacecapemay wrote:

I came across this idea of citizenship from the 1800's when someone asked Abraham Lincoln about letting so many immigrants into America.

He said: some people view being an American as a certificate of ancestry...when it is an agreement to uphold certain ideals.

I wonder if we all keep that focus in the West...whether it's being French, or being British or being American...maybe we could contain terrorism without becoming fearful/hateful and losing the things that the West should be proud of. Yeah, I'm idealistic. :yes:

Oh dear :rolleyes: ...It's times like these I wish I was Klintock haha

Former Member

It seems to me that being proud to be British is considerd somehow racist. Look at the Americans, how proud they are to fly their flag, how often do you see that in Britain? Britains seem ashamed to be British. Yes there are other cultures living here and yes we should respect that, but we shouldn't be ashamed of our own!

Former Member

But aren't the other people British if they're born and raised here?

Too much love of one's own country can bring problems I think, but if you're happy with your own country and secure then it's not really that racist.

I'm not proud to be British...

Teh_Gerbil

I am proud to be British. I always will be, Britain has been a great country.

I am not, thought, proud of what Britain has become now.

Former Member

Oh dear :rolleyes: ...It's times like these I wish I was Klintock haha

>insert my usual comments about citizenship being bullshit here<

This is another problem faced when dealing with terrorists. they think about countries the same way I do. They know it's bullshit. All they see is a group of men and women bombing the fuck out of other muslims. They see the whole "countries" thing as an excuse. And they are right, it is.

The bombs against the populations of "london" etc can easily be seen as justifiable if you remember that there are no innocent civilians in a democracy. Your votes put the murderers like bush and blair in place, runs the logic, your taxes pay for the bombs that flatten fallujah so you are fair game. Cutting a supply line is a good tactic militarily, and democracies run on political support.

Just like as in the cold war, when the "british" were outfoxed by the fact that spies were loyal to the idea of communism, not the idea of nation state initially, theres going to have to be a coming to terms with the terrorists as well.

That's of course, assuming that there are any, for all we know it was MI5 or the executives of Vosene shampoo, no evidence has been released.

Former Member

This is another problem faced when dealing with terrorists. they think about countries the same way I do. They know it's bullshit.

Spoken to the IRA and UVF recently have you?

Former Member

How can you be 'proud' of something that you are?

Surely the only reason to fell pride is in something that has been achieved?

I am not 'proud' to be British because it is a complete fluke........

I like Britain and realise its benefits over most of the rest of the world but I am not proud.

Also I would say that people not flying the flag all over the place is not a sign of shame but rather that people in Britain are different to those in the US. There are plenty ofvery patriotic British people who wouldn't fly a Union jack simply because it is not a normal thing to do in Britain..........

Former Member

Spoken to the IRA and UVF recently have you?

Different terrorists. Those idiots believe in states and want to put their own version of insanity in place.

Teh_Gerbil

Toadborg wrote:

Also I would say that people not flying the flag all over the place is not a sign of shame but rather that people in Britain are different to those in the US. There are plenty ofvery patriotic British people who wouldn't fly a Union jack simply because it is not a normal thing to do in Britain..........

And that we realise there is no reason to fly it 24/7, as it just creates more washing as the darn thing will only need cleaning alot.

Plus, we aren't brainwashed into worshiping the flags like the American kids are at school, poor bastards. But yeah, that shows how it's a different culture.

Former Member

satehen wrote:

It seems to me that being proud to be British is considerd somehow racist. Look at the Americans, how proud they are to fly their flag, how often do you see that in Britain? Britains seem ashamed to be British. Yes there are other cultures living here and yes we should respect that, but we shouldn't be ashamed of our own!

I suggest you read Jeremy Paxman's brilliant book 'The English: A Portrait of a People' (anyone else read it?). He talks about English Patriotism and compares it to Americans - you know the flag waving, concluding the English are so secure and certain there is no need for it.

Former Member

I was trying to explain to an American recently why we dont go in for all that flag saluting, national anthem singing stuff.

My thought was that we'd had a belly full of it during WW2 and frankly we didnt like it all that much.