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Another day, another Tory shows his true colours
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
Following Conservative leadership frontrunner David Davis' comments about failed multiculturalism and Muslims failing to integrate, fellow frontbench Tory Gerald Howarth has gone one better and demanded that British-born Muslims who don't give allegiance to this country "should leave". http://politics.guardian.co.uk/conservatives/story/0,9061,1542029,00.html
Which begs the question, what exactly is meant by "showing allegiance to this country"? Support the government and its murderous ways in Iraq? Refuse to voice opposition to foreign policy?
And what would this honourable Tory would do with them, since they are British citizens?
And furthermore, what would he do about white Christian British people (as opposed to dirty Asians and dangerous Muslims presumably) who "don't give allegiance to this country"? Can they stay then?
I almost feel sorry for the BNP. It appears their policies are being shamelessly pinched one by one by Tories. The cheek!
Which begs the question, what exactly is meant by "showing allegiance to this country"? Support the government and its murderous ways in Iraq? Refuse to voice opposition to foreign policy?
And what would this honourable Tory would do with them, since they are British citizens?
And furthermore, what would he do about white Christian British people (as opposed to dirty Asians and dangerous Muslims presumably) who "don't give allegiance to this country"? Can they stay then?
I almost feel sorry for the BNP. It appears their policies are being shamelessly pinched one by one by Tories. The cheek!
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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I suspect him being a Tory and opposed to the Government his view of allegiance is not support for the Government.
I do have sympathy with his view that people should have some idea of allegiance to this county - and not supporting those who blow themselves up in the underground. This doesn't mean you have to worship Blair or support the Iraq War or even support England at cricket. I'm pretty sure this is not a racist viewpoint.
The real problem isn't Gerald Howarth making the comments, but the fact that as soon as he starts to engage in a debate about what allegiance people should give to the state people start accusing him of being racist and as bad as the BNP. That's actually a more worrying trend than his comments
I wasn't aware that holding an opinion was now a crime punishable by expulsion from one's home.
http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1721092005 (you have to register I'm afraid).
So its not just Howarth who has this view.
Its probably also worth noting
also from the Scotsman, but despite large chunks of the Guardian article being copied word by word from the Scotsman - this bit is mysteriously missing :chin:
Given that the traitor Philby, Blunt et al were white upper-middle class I would suspect his comments are more about loyalty to one's country and not murdering your fellow citizens than a BNP like agenda to get rid of all Moslems.
Especially given
Now you may disagree with his views, but that doesn't mean his views are racist.
If you argue against british law and claim that "infidels" should be blown up then you should be booted out- Hamza should be kicked out to Egypt, for instance.
Having this discussion is not racist, and I am sick of hearing the same bleatings about race time and time again.
no it is racist, if it was a point of principle that you cant complain about people ighting for the country or leading it, then you couldnt complain or form an iopposition against a facist state, its hard to explain what about if british law became what you thought was 'out of order' as a whole like say non violent politcal opponents getting killed
then surely itd be fine to argue that the leaders of this country should die
the tories made this statement in thinking only non white british citizens think this
fighting for a non british military or armed force is illegal and rightfully so, but not verbally supporting the other armed groups.....
i dont know how but i get more worried by the day about britsh politics
If you go to another country to fight the armed forces of this one then it is treason, and treasonous people should be kicked out.
If you argue- as Hamza does- that the Government should be overthrown, and anyone who isn't an Islamic fundy deserves to be blown up, then that person should be kicked out of the country.
It has nothing to do with race. People draw that inference because its much easier to pretend that it is racist and therefore ignorable than it is to actually understand the argument and realise that there are certain elements of this country- often from an ethnic background, but not necessarily so- that do not deserve to live here.
It has nothing to do with race, the Tory in question says the same about the white middle-class KGB spies. IF they love Russia so much they should be sent there.
If you were a foreign national of any race, are accepted through immigration and then commit treason then your nationality should be revoked and you should be deported.
However, as the same rules cannot be applied to UK born citizens there is an instant - and accurate - accusation of discrimination. It is not possible to deport UK born citizens.
Having said that, there was a small island which we used a few years ago... of course, we gave the deportees nothing to do but practice sports...
"If they don't like our way of life, there is a simple remedy: go to another country, get out. There are plenty of other countries whose way of life would appear to be more conducive to what they aspire to. They would be happy and we would be happy."
I can put it to the honourable gentleman that countless people, the kind of who read the Daily Mail every day and fully agree with its agenda, definitely don't like our way of life. They don't like the secularisation of society. They don't like the social and sexual liberation. They don't like same-sex relationships being given equal rights. They don't like the so-called "moral decline" and "breakdown of family values" they claim Britain is suffering from. In short, they don't like what Britain is today, and would like to impose on all of us an agenda that is every bit as archaic, unfair and unrealistic as that of those who would like to see a strict Islamist society.
These people happen to be white, Christian and almost always invariably Tory voters. I look forward to Mr Howarth demanding they get the hell out of Britain if they dislike it so much. Until he does though he remains a prejudiced bigot at best, or a borderline racist tosspot at worst in my book.
He also doesn't mention deportation - if you read he says which does suggest they should go under their own steam, rather than be deported
So for me the key phrase in this is 'Tory' and for the defence I submit that that if this had been a Labour or a Lib-Dem this would have been a non-story
(PS I hate August, everyone's a way and all I've got to do is piss around on the internet) :crying:
First off, he appears to have decided unanimously that any one who thinks the Iraq war is a conflict against Islam is "an extremist". That, I'm afraid, it's rubbish and there have been many Muslims, by no means extremist let alone supportive of suicide bombings, who see Western foreign policy as a direct attack on Muslim values and on Islam. Whether you agree or disagree with that it is a very legitimate concern.
However Mr Howarth thinks anyone who thinks that way should leave the country. And furthermore adopts that revered Neocon School of Thought that claims if you are against your government's policy (for it is government's policy, not country) you are a 'traitor'.
He's talking utter bovine excrement I'm afraid, and suspiciously prejudiced one at that.
That's dividing Moslems into extremists and non-extremists, and the non-extremists are alright whatever their views. Its is the extremists he has a problem with.
I mean he can't make it more plain than this
that he doesn't consider the majority of Moslems extremists or that they should leave.
And when he's saying how terrible the extremist Moslems are who does he compare them to - that's right a bunch of middle-class Oxbridge educated public school boys who were also traitors to this country.
To be honest I don't agree with him - I think its a slippery step when the Government decides to rescind people status as British subjects. But I don't think Howarth is racist for the views he has.
i'm ver uncertain about what constitutes loyalty to ones country.
i would refuse to be conscripted to fight most wars ...is that treason?
as for fighting british troops in a foriegn land ...a land the british were not invited to ...i'm again unsure.
Im with you on this. If you hate the country, fuck off somewhere you like then. I have no problem if you get along with our laws, and abide by them, and don;t kill innocent people. If you preach hatred, get out. The BNP are bad. In the same manner, the Islamic Extremists are bad.
I would never, however, vote Tory. They are a shite party, and alot of them are racists.
Yes, there are times to do that. But they are not. They have no intention to improve the life of the average Briton in anyway.
Foreign-born Muslims however in Britain who don’t accept British values of tolerance for example towards other religions, gays and lesbians should in my opinion be deported. In fact anybody who’s foreign-born and in this country who spouts hatred should not be here. We have enough racists as it is. So that includes stopping the odd American white supremacist visiting Britain. Of course I guess this is alright in principle but it’s difficult defining who falls into this category and who doesn’t.
However I’d guess that if an individual advocates murdering gays, beating up women and blowing up Israeli civilians and is also strongly opposed by a rainbow coalition of gays, lesbians, feminists, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews and atheists then they should not be welcome in Britain, let alone receive the red carpet treatment courtesy of Ken Livingstone.
whats your point, there are a minority of catholic and protestant people in Northern Ireland who are intolerant of each other and would like a total state of their own people, yet it is a small minority
i think a lot of English hold onto the ideal England, the England of fox hunting, the good English culture, but in reality, history will tell you the English are made up of so many sub-races, scandanavians, celts, saxons, all sorts, there's no definitive English culture, it has evolved, always will evolved so basically what your guy is saying here is a load of bollocks
here i think you play the Israel card too much here, as if every foreign born Muslim beats women and likes to blow themselves up, do a bit of research of the religion of Islam, it's remarkebly similar to Christianity and Judaeism, there are well over 1 billion Muslims in the world, i'll admit some passages in the Koran are ambigious and you'll find some people taking their own interpretation of it and using it not for religious reaosns, but for nationalistic reasons..it's a very small minority, Christains aren't fighting wars against other nations, they don't need to take a few passages from the Bible and use it as a reason for attacking agrssors
Maybe not... but they still speak of Crusades, Good and Evil, and mention God in every other speech while their military machines prepare the next assault in yet another country of geopolitical interest (which of late invariably happens to be Muslim).
Can you not read or something? My post makes it quite clear that I do not think every foreign born Muslim beats women and blows themselves up. Do you not understand the meaning of the word minority?
Can you tell me how exactly I play the Israel card? Erm can I even ask what the heck the Israel card is?
That was referring to extremist Muslim cleric al-Qaradawi who condoned suicide bombings in Israel and executing homosexuals and also defended domestic violence against women. I have no idea how that is playing the Israel card, whatever that is.
That doesn't make their actions any more justifiable of course- but I am getting really sick and tired of Tony and Dubya claiming the attacks (be New York, Madrid or London) are some kind of campaign to convert the world to an Islamic state when in fact nothing of the sort is true- as the bombers and Al Qaida themselves have said repeated times :rolleyes:
The attacks were prompted by the historically unjust and abusive Western Middle East policy, from Palestine to Iraq. And it's disgusting although not surprising in the slightest that our dear leaders continue to lie to all of us and claim all sort of nonsense regarding the attacks and the so-called 'war on terror' in an attempt to save their arses.
Seeing as there were at least seven separate al-Qaeda terrorist attacks prior to the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts our involvement in those conflicts is obviously not the sole reason that we were attacked. Prior to Afghanistan/Iraq al-Qaeda had already attacked Americans repeatedly. Bombing US embassies, murdering US soldiers and sailors and killing Americans in Saudi Arabia. Therefore I think as America’s closest ally Britain would still have been prone to attack from these terrorists.
Personally I think terrorists citing British involvement in Iraq as a reason to kill innocent people here is more of an excuse than anything else. I think they feel they will somehow legitimise their murderous acts of terrorism by saying that. If Iraq was their reason surely they’d have went to Iraq? Or if Iraq was their reason why would they just blow up random civilians? I mean a sizeable chunk of the population opposed the Iraq war in the first place.
You could also argue that the first Gulf war occurred before all of the above attacks...
Surely the same could be said of the politician then.
If he hates the fact that this country tolerates such speech, then why doesn't he leave?
Always comes back to Israel doesn't it... :rolleyes:
Yes, the US is a target for terrorists because of its support for Israel. The US makes itself a target for fundamentalist Islamic terrorists by supporting the Middle East’s only liberal democracy. The US’s brave and courageous support of Israel is one of the few areas of American foreign policy that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Support of Israel isn’t the sole reason however that fundamentalist Muslim terrorists hate the West. Britain isn’t very supportive these days of the Israelis and I don’t think the Spanish are either?
What else do you think it would be? Do you really think that the US gets vilified by many in the Arab world, or attacked because of "envy" or something, as some claim?
A liberal democracy that has illegally occupied another people's land for 4 decades and subjected them to a catalogue of atrocities that would make most tyrants blush.
That's a surprise.
You're right. Illegal wars on Iraq and continuing double standards regarding brutal dictators (we'll install you in power today, and fuck the locals. We'll bomb you to hell tomorrow to install the next puppet, done 'for the sake' of the locals) are the other reasons.