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Deferred success.
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Argh. your views on this please? Is this just political correctness to an absurd extreme, or is there more to it?
An article on BBC News says that no pupil should fail [news.bbc.co.uk].
That's what the headline is anyway. If you read it though "teachers" are not actually saying that, they are about to hear it, as a suggestion, at a conference, from one retired teacher.
The idea behind the concept is that, instead of failing, pupils should have a "deferred success". This is possibly some of the most politically correct nonsense that I've heard spewed out for a while.
Are we so nannying these days that we cannot tell someone when they haven't managed to do something properly? How are these folk, who grow up protected from any possibility of failure supposed to cope within their working lives? Or, when they make a mistake a work, will they, instead of being pulled up, be told "that work was great bob, but we'll defer your success on that until next time shall we?".
For god's sake.
An article on BBC News says that no pupil should fail [news.bbc.co.uk].
That's what the headline is anyway. If you read it though "teachers" are not actually saying that, they are about to hear it, as a suggestion, at a conference, from one retired teacher.
The idea behind the concept is that, instead of failing, pupils should have a "deferred success". This is possibly some of the most politically correct nonsense that I've heard spewed out for a while.
Are we so nannying these days that we cannot tell someone when they haven't managed to do something properly? How are these folk, who grow up protected from any possibility of failure supposed to cope within their working lives? Or, when they make a mistake a work, will they, instead of being pulled up, be told "that work was great bob, but we'll defer your success on that until next time shall we?".
For god's sake.
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Comments
Of course, theres no "success" either if you think about it like that, either.
I suppose it's all how you treat the feedback you are given.
there's not, sucess can be measured in exams, if you get over the average of what the rest of the class got then that's a sucess of sorts, if you get below the average, thats a failure of some sorts
Err i think I didn't communicate my point very well. You "fail" your exam, but it's retakable, you can learn more. you pass the exam, it's failable, you can forget what you now know about everything and move onto other things.
I think there is a very valid point about people on both sides of that equation. Lot's of folk think of themselves as failures because of a few events when they should really be thinking about what they do next. Also some "successes" like to sit around on their laurels because they have "made it" both are anathema to living well.
I get people like this all the time - they have coloured their lives as failure and tell me they can never suceed. I tell them to go out and play three games and lose. When they come back for the next session I point out that they succeeded in doing what I asked.
Anything that gets someone up and moving towards the things they want in life I am in favour of, no matter how stupid it seems.
That's the stuff, nicely put mate. :thumb:
Labelling people as failures from an early age can destroy any chance a lot of people have. If you're a failure why bother trying?
There's always a point, a very good point, with all these initiatives. They're just not marketed well because of Daily Mail Syndrome.
Aye. they never seem to ask the sensible question "will it work?" do they.
Will it work? Who knows.
Have the papers rubbished it before trying it? Definitely.
but if you're a deffered sucess why try harder?
as i've said, someone who wants to suceed and gets a fail in his exam will give him the incentive to try harder...
Do you think if they dont bother retaking the exam theyl get a letter in a few years saying, you deffered sucsess in an earlier exam, but havnt taken it again so your officialy a failure
I have thought on a few occasions how could one get the lowest acheivers to go somewhere. I don't know how other schools work but we had 4 "sets" set 4 being the lowest, people who were generally there simply becuase they had to be and were not interested in education as such, I was friendly with a few and to me some of them seemed much more genuine and likeable people than people in my set and it bothered me a little to think they would not be getting the high paid jobs as easily if at all. But then i realised these were more practical people to an extent (or drug addicts)
I can remember once in GCSE geography that a friend of mine (not enough ppl for 4 sets so we just had one) was asked if the blue stuff on the map was water, what was the green stuff and he said "grass". Everyone was laughing at him including the teacher, and I think it really affected his confidence, after finishing school he went to work on a farm and I beleive he is still there. He was always good at the more practical things yet school must have been hell for him, always being told he had failed etc.
The other side to it is in my experience the rest of the people in the lower sets were of ethnic minorities, now im not being racist or saying they are stupid, but I have not been able to figure out why. I mean most of the doctors/chemists I have met have been asian, so it cannot be lack of intelligence or lack of will on the whole surely.
One other thing is the quality of the parenting I believe. People I know with strict parents who also made ti quite clear they had better do well at exams etc generally did, and they were not the people I saw a few years later in the local paper for mugging some old dear.
Whereas the people i knew who either had single parents or a lot of brother + sisters who's parents let them get away with anything and when they do shout, boy do they shout.
I mean you see it all the time, I hate going to tesco when some 19 yr old girls is pushing her child in the push chair and the kid is just shouting and making a scene while the mum goes on oblivious, I mean I know it can;t be easy for her, but why can't she tell him to shut up? or no sweets if he carries on etc.
I know im going off topic a bit and I apolagise but it does get to me a little to think the general standard of the people is going downhill and I think parenting has a big part to play as does the area you live in I guess. And I don't mean immigrants or ethinc minorites, I mean just plain old british people.
Sorry the post is so long and I have not re-read it so I hope I don;t sound like too much of an arsehole. it's only my second post and no i don;t have any sources, this is just from my own experiene of where I live, but sayign that I have travelled the Uk a fair bit and think perhaps this is a bigger problem in wales? but thats a guess
Thanks
DJH
as for your mate, well i'm sure school didn't give him much self esteem but some people just generally don't get some aspects of education, i'm sure he had dreams, a career set out for him in his head, now he's living that i'm sure
as for ethnic minorities being in the lower classes, a lot of ethnic minorities in this country are 2nd or 3rd generation, meaning their parents don't speak much English, therefore they don't live in an English speaking environment at home, making it harder for these children to learn in class, plus i'm sure it's a totally different system of education in their respective countries, it takes time for them to adapt sometimes
plus i don't think we're getting worse as a society, yes chavs et al are all over the papers but i don't pay much attention to them, there are many young nice intelligent people out there
Thanks for the ethnic minorites thing, I did not think of it like that, I can see how it would apply however, My g/f went to a welsh school where they could only speak welsh (not her first language and her parents can't speak a word of it) and tho far from being thick she can remember hardly anything from school even though she did very well and went on to a degree.
So I guess i can understand how it would be difficult.
I guess we have always had some equivalent to chavs through out the last 100 years or so at least. it just "seems" to be getting worse, or is that just because I don't like it. i don't live in a posh part of the country and so that does not help (are there still any?). it just seems that in the 40's 50's the younger generation was better behaved in general, I cannot base that on anything and someone will probably prove me wrong which is fair enough. but what i am saying is I am fairly sure parenting is a lot less strict, esspecially with not being able to slap your child etc. like ok some or even a lot of people abused that which is just plain disgusting, but on the other hand it had a generally positive effect i think.
I don't know what i was trying to say anymore, he he
DJH
Also, would distinctions be made between those who succeeded first time round and those who had deferred success? Because if not, would it not be devaluing the achievements of those who succeeded from the off.
Don't want to put them off but don't want them thinking they can get away with not doing anything. hmm
Only a certain number of people can get each grade at GCSE. Whilst nominally everyone could get an A in a year, the grade boundaries are adjusted according to peer review- if everyone does well, then therefore the exam must have been easy, and therefore the amount of marks needed for a grade will rise.
Also one person getting a C at GCSE is a huge achievement, whereas for another it would be a failure. This is never taken into account either: even if someone is working as hard and as well as they can, they will be termed a failure if they are not acaedmically gifted. If you work as hard as you can and still get consigned to the scrap heap, then why bother?
Perhaps the world shouldn't be wrapped up in cotton wool. But if you throw people on the scrapheap then don't be surprised if they go and destroy things instead of working for things.
No, but actions have consequences.
Tell a child that they are a failure enough and you will stop them being productive.
My problem is the definition of what success and failure is. A kid who works as hard as he can and doesn't get the "success" level in an exam won't bother trying again- what is the point? Don't pretend that people don't think like that, because they do
Of course it is. But the rationale behind it is not.
What I dislike about the system we have is that success and failure is purely judged against examination results. The lad who slogged his guts off for his three Cs in my year was more of a success than me coasting and skiving my way to my As and Bs. But I would be hailed as the success, and he would be tossed in the bin as the failure.
That is what needs to change. That is the rationale behind this. The scheme is bobbins, but the motive is decent.
It is not failing to do something vocational.
sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind
And that is exactly the crux of the problem. In this age it is considered a failure to only have NVQs or GNVQs.
Turlough, I agree with you there, I don't think "deferred success" is anything other than a stupid idea. But the idea behind it- trying to get people to believe in themselves and not see themselves as failures- is noble.
I have a friend, who is easily as clever as me, she didn't do any a-levels, or obviously a degree. She's in management at pizza-hut, which even though it's management is looked down on by the knobs we went to school with. What she does have is a yatchs master qualification, which is basically a degree in sailing. She's a skipper, and an instructer and a complete legend.
My summer job is as a labourer, a builder/handyman/grunt, I look crap at work, I'm covered in dust and wearing scruffy clothes and a tool belt. No-one to look at me would think I have a-levels and study engineering at a top 5 engineering uni. I'm looked down on, because I do a physical job, but am respected because I can do maths harder than most people can even come close to understanding...
It makes no sense. Especially because I had to fight to match up to my peers at GCSE and A-level, even with my 12+ a couple of years into school, no-one knew or cared that I failed my 12+. By my a-levels, no-one cared what my GCSE grades were, a year into uni, no-one cares what GCSEs I even took, and once I graduate, no-one will give a shit about my a-levels except in a tie-break situation, and that won't happen after 3/4 years of work.
I think this little idea is silly, but I don't think the idea should be condemned. It just needs to be applied with intelligence for a change. People can't be mollycoddled anymore than they can be tossed in the dustbin.
YOu shouldn't come across it, but for many graduate positions they do look at UCAS points. Bastards.
I do think there needs to be something a bit better for those who are less academically minded, Ok there are NVQ's etc but i do feel they are looked down upon. Like ok a Level 3 NVQ is meant to be A-level equivalent but no one seems to look upon it so.
I do think calling someone a failure is not going to help them in most cases, but sugar coating their lack of performance also won't help. perhaps something in the middle, what i don't know
DJH