End of Trial by Jury?

Former Member

Isn't to be judged by a jury of your peers one of the cornerstones of British justice? Or are fraud cases too complex to be understood by the general public?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4113296.stm

Former Member

Fraud cases are awfully complex, and I don't think juries are always up to speed on the intricacies of the cases. I can't follow half of the legal tangents that get thrown up, what hope has someone with no experience at all?

It's not fraud cases that concern me, tbh. The government want to remove the right for defendants in Magistrates Courts to be able to opt for a Crown Court jury trial if they wished. In terms of governance it kinda makes sense- my boss had a Crown Court trial for theft of a can of beans not so very long ago, because the defendant demanded one- but in terms of principle I think it is deeply worrying.

Former Member

They have shunned the alternative of judges sitting alongside panels of experts or people with financial experience to decide cases.

if they wanted to make the trials more understood so the cases outcome is more correct (notice how i put it so tha tit doesnt mean more convictions, just more people who are actually guilty are found guilty) they would of done that method, not done a judge only trial

goodbye to freedom and democracy which they love spouting so much

we often need saving from our own government

Former Member

See banking thread for why they want this appalling state of affairs.

All banking is fraud, no one knows and they want to keep it that way.

Fraud cases are awfully complex, and I don't think juries are always up to speed on the intricacies of the cases. I can't follow half of the legal tangents that get thrown up, what hope has someone with no experience at all?

The whole financial system is a thin web of bullshit held together with lies, this is a move to protect it. Christ I need a tinfoil hat these days.

At best it's classic "government" thinking- that the man in the street is too dim to understand complex issues and needs to be sheltered from his ignorance. At worst it's another probe into the rights of the citizen, as few as they are.

Former Member

Fraud cases are awfully complex, and I don't think juries are always up to speed on the intricacies of the cases. I can't follow half of the legal tangents that get thrown up, what hope has someone with no experience at all?

I do have some sympathy with that. And some of the proposals put forward to the Government by legal and financial experts aren't as bad as they sound. One suggestion seems to be replacing a jury of 'normal' people with a panel of experts, which may be actually be a proper jury of peers. Unfortuantely that's been ruled out.

That said I sometimes feel that if a fraud is so complex that ordinary people can't follow it theres a good chance that whilst someone may have been sailing close to the wind they haven't broken the law.

It's not fraud cases that concern me, tbh. The government want to remove the right for defendants in Magistrates Courts to be able to opt for a Crown Court jury trial if they wished. In terms of governance it kinda makes sense- my boss had a Crown Court trial for theft of a can of beans not so very long ago, because the defendant demanded one- but in terms of principle I think it is deeply worrying.

I thought it had already gone. I agree with you that it makes sense in terms of efficiency, but the principle is scary. The only thing I can think of is Crown Court judges punishing minor crimes quite severely, so that it becomes less beneficial to call for a Crown Court Trial. Of course that raises the issue of whether sending someone to jail for six years for stealing a can of beans is proportionate.

Edited: for clarity

Former Member

I would go along with the 'jury of experts' idea in these cases - seems fairer than just getting rid of trial-by-jury altogether.

However, what goodwill or sympathy I might have had with the Government on this evaporates when they just go ahead and choose the most illiberal and destructive choice.

So screw them.