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not quite a debate
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
but im interested in joining some organisations, mainly civil liberty ones, the only one si can think of are LIBERTY and NO2ID
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Transsexuals press for change
THE FREEDOM ASSOCIATION
International Society for Individual Liberty
The Democracy Movement
cyber-rights
The REAL Liberal Party
The Freedom Party
Freedom doesn't count for much with you does it Blagsta, unless people conform to your programme..
On the contrary, I'm for freedom for everyone, not just for the rich and priviledged. Thats the problem with your particular brand of libertarianism - you only want negative freedoms, not positive. You only want freedom for those who can afford it. That ain't freedom in my book.
its more about individual liberty and letting people live their lives as long as they arent harming someone else, and taste doesnt matter in this context
Sorry, you've lost me.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/
name me a negative liberty......
rights of the individual, what ones? like right to a fair trial by jury, rights to access to education and healthcare, rights to choose what personal inofrmation we give away other than the basics like name and DOB
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and obviously peoples opinion idffer but surely there are ones which most people can agree should be kept paramount - like in regards to legal stuatus its innocent til proven guilty
Positive liberties are rights to something. Such as rights to education like you said above.
Negative liberties are rights from things. Such as coercion i.e. having to disclose personal information, like you said above.
Not quite, but close enough. The thing is, free market libertarians are only interested in the negative concept. They have nothing to say about positive freedoms - freedom to do things, which requires some kind of economic equality. Something which the free market cannot deliver.
Will you offer some examples of these "things" which are possible with "positive freedom" ?
seeker
Sorry...what? Can you expand on this?
Do you ever post any opinions of your own?
I want freedom for all Blagsta, and don't share your view of pos/neg freedoms.
We were asked to suggest civil liberty groups - it's not surprising that as a socially conservative individual I'd have to hand such links. If you had offered 'left wing' links I wouldn't have noticed - much less attack them as nasty - even though they may well have had programmes which infringed on my civil liberties (as most leftist ideologies do).
I'm sure I don't share your view of left/right polarity either.
http://www.mises.org/fipandol/fipsec1.asp
I asked you to expand on it.
What is your critique of positive and negative freedom? What do you mean by freedom?
Which left idealogies infringe on your civil liberties? In what way? Authoratarian left or libertarian?
What is your critique of left/right? What is your economic stance?
http://www.mises.org/fipandol/fipsec1.asp
On a cursory reading (I'm at work) - what a load of old flannel. How can people be equal and free when there is inequality of access to services and resources? It makes no sense.
How can they be free when you would impose socialism, for example, on them?
Maybe you should answer later on your own time if you're at work...I'm sure your work is really important.
I'm talking about economic equality - equal access to resources. A pre-requisite for freedom.
How can people be free when capitalism is imposed on them?
Your questions don't require much time to answer.
Capitalism isn't imposed on me - socialism is.
Stop calling yaself a Libertarian - you're a big-state-socialist.
Why shouldn't all humans have equal access to resources? Are you saying that might is right (which is what capitalism ultimately comes down to)? How can we determine who does the most work in a company? Isn't it a team effort? What work do investors do?
Do you live in the UK? How is socialism imposed on you? Capitalism certainly is though.
I think I know what my politics are more than you do thanks. Stop calling yourself libertarian. You're not. You're a capitalist.
Yea I shouldn't have said that..
Top notch article.
Come on,you know I do
Back to the thread:you brought up "freedom to do things" which I felt needed some explaining.Later you have mentioned "economic equality",suggesting (to me) that "things" can only be done with economic means ?
Further insight,perhaps,with "Why shouldn't all humans have equal access to resources?" "Resources" according to yourself being "land, wood, coal, oil etc."
From this,add many assumptions and I`m left with economic equality for all humans with equal access to "resources" :chin:
IF that`s what you meant then I`d say imposssible.No two individuals being equal physically or mentally.No two individuals applying their unequal physical attributes equally.Likewise in the application of their mental attributes.In the very unlikely event of everything else being equal,I`d say those four aforementioned variables condemn any notion of equality without coercion.
Am I correct in thinking you oppose coercion ?
seeker