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Iran's nuclear program............

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I'm curious what people's views are on this, with respect to....

- america's right to dictate what iran can and cannot develop.........surely this should be left to the u.n........especially in light of the most recent cock-up, where iraqi blood is spilt everyday because we thought saddam was coming for us.... :yeees:......(in case you forgot we didn't go in to spread democracy, it was WMD's, ssssh....)

- why it would be so dangerous for iran to have nuke capability, i don't think they would use it except in retaliation, don't forget it was MAD that supposedly prevented the cold war from escalating, right now it's israel holding all the nukes but noone says a peep about that......... :chin:.............surely an unequal playing field is more dangerous than an equal one, take pakistan and india right now for instance.........and then take the u.s. and iraq.........

- what their current nuclear program is for, energy or weapons capability? personally i think a bit of both, they look around and see u.s. didn't need proof to attack iraq, the only thing holding them at bay in korea is nukes......makes perfect sense to me, they can't really win no matter what they do............

- america have been covertly spying in iran for months now, and everyone knows the CIA have a record of fucking these secret interventions up and they usually escalate into full blown violence e.g. overthrowing Iranian govt in 1953, the Phoenix program in Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Laos, Iran-contras.......the list is endless.

i really think iran are screwed, whatever they do their time is up soon, this is just the latest.........if israel do go ahead with this i can't see iran lying down, they have military alliances with china and russia, and that's when things really get interesting........
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Iran should be Allowed Nukes, the rest of the world has them, after all.

    Hell, Iran gave America a kicking once, are they REALLY stupid enough to go back? Bear in mind Iran has upgraded its armed forces since...

    If Israel does that, I daresay Iran will flatten Israel. Then the US invades Iran, and Iran's allies won't sit back at this, they will have supported the flattening of Israel. America starts to loose, gets humpty and nukes them. They nuke back. Then...

    Welcome, my freind, to the Apocalypse. Cup of Tea?

    Ok, then ending is improbable, no one will hopefully nuke the other party. It'll be bloodshed if Israel does that. Although I feel it'd be a case of Poetic Justice.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Iran has as much right to possess nuclear weapons as the US. Or Israel. Or China. Or Pakistan. Or Russia. Or North Korea. Or India.

    And certainly there are much more grounds for forcing some of those countries to get rid of their nukes than there are for preventing Iran from getting some.

    I wish hypocrisy caused people to die of hemorrhagic fever...
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    If any of that list scares me, its N. Korea, but I don't think Kim is that mad. He won't nuke the US unless he thinks he can get away with it. Which he can't.

    Much hype about nothing. AGAIN. Bloody Bush regime hyping it up again.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm, I personally am not going to stand up and say Iran dont have nukes, but I think it would be best if they didnt.

    I'm just not all that sure the leadership of Iran is all that stable.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it would be best if noone did........so bb do you think its something important enough to go to war over.......? who are iran gonna nuke........i think it's a purely defensive measure, after seeing what happened to iraq you'd have to be stupid to not try and avoid the same fate..........aladdin is right the sheer hypocrisy of it all is amazing.......
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I dont think its worth going to war for, but we should attempt to stop them getting nukes, same as we should be getting rid of ours.

    As for a possible target, I'm sure there are certain sections of the Iranian leadership who'd like to see Israel out of the way.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes, and that's because israeli leadership full stop would like to see the rest of the middle east out of the way, as they blatantly declared in 1996, which i pointed out in another thread........and they are the one with nukes.........so who am i more worried about starting trouble? hmmm........

    ETA: another fact is with global politics, you're not treated seriously unless you have nukes, and then the u.s. start pandering to you, which gives entirely the wrong message out.........even now iran are being offered all sorts of prizes for dropping nuclear program.......
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The old adage of two wrongs dont make a right works here.

    I dont want Israel to have nukes, same as I dont want Iran to have nukes.

    Just because one has them doesnt make it right for all to have them.

    Thats crazy, you might as well say 'well the US has nukes I want them myself'.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lol, this two wrongs thing sounds like a cop-out........no country has anymore right to nukes than any other country..........so who is considered the authority on who should and shouldn't.......? israel has already said categorically they will destroy iran's nuclear program if it's not dismantled, so i guess they think they are the authority.......and see edited post above, there's incentives to be acquiring nukes....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My point was that its all too easy to say 'Oh the US is being hypcritical again' but it is just that a easy reply, it doesnt go anywhere.

    Lets face it there are nations we would rather have nukes and nations we'd rather not.

    To me, Iran is one of those nations I'd rather not have them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    Erm, I personally am not going to stand up and say Iran dont have nukes, but I think it would be best if they didn't.

    I'm just not all that sure the leadership of Iran is all that stable.

    Agreed. You actually think their responsible enough to have this type of firepower at their disposal? I do think a country like that would use them just like North Korea would.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i guess you think america are 'responsible' with their firepower.......the nations i'd rather not have nukes are the ones telling everybody else they can't, because that might level the playing field.........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apollo_69 wrote:
    i guess you think america are 'responsible' with their firepower.......the nations i'd rather not have nukes are the ones telling everybody else they can't, because that might level the playing field.........


    I didnt really say that the US were or were not responsible with their nukes.

    I agree with you that I'd rather see everyone without nukes.

    But, given that we are in the real world where people do have them the question arrises who do we and who dont we want to have them?

    I think the 'nukes for all makes it a level playing field' arguement is bollox. I'll have a couple if we're going to do that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    I didnt really say that the US were or were not responsible with their nukes.

    that comment was in reply to felix, and not specifically nukes although america are still the ONLY country to ever use a nuke, hiroshima anyone?
    I think the 'nukes for all makes it a level playing field' arguement is bollox. I'll have a couple if we're going to do that.

    think about this carefully.......in an ideal world yes noone would have nukes but......look at examples where both opposing sides have nukes e.g. cold war, india/pakistan, neither side will risk using them because of MAD, that's the only assurance you get with nukes......

    say you and i have a plot of land, man being inherently greedy i say i want what you got, give it to me, or ill nuke you, you get scared shitless and probably hand over your land in order to survive, or i nuke you and you die..........whereas if you have a nuke you say nah piss off i'll nuke you, and that's where it ends, we would rather co-exist than non-exist.........if you can't see this argument i can't make it any clearer......
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apollo_69 wrote:
    say you and i have a plot of land, man being inherently greedy i say i want what you got, give it to me, or ill nuke you, you get scared shitless and probably hand over your land in order to survive, or i nuke you and you die..........whereas if you have a nuke you say nah piss off i'll nuke you, and that's where it ends, we would rather co-exist than non-exist.........if you can't see this argument i can't make it any clearer......

    I can see the logic, but that assumes that all leaders opperate in a logical way, that they dont want to die, that they wouldnt sacrifice 100,000's of lives just for their cause....which isnt always true.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i don't think any govt is stupid enough to risk getting their nation blown up, just look at kim jong il, he has to be the most unstable dude with nukes on the planet, yet common sense pervails..........and he would love to blow america up.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, but despite his claims he probably doesn't have nuclear weapons and even if he did he doesn't have missiles with enough range to hit US.

    However, even if he did he's quite secure at the moment so why would he go for a doomsday scenario. It might not feel the same when he got's hungry mobs screaming at his door and nuking Seoul (which he hates much more than Washington) might seem a more attractive alternative.

    That said the two worst places to have them at the moment are India and Pakistan - simply because they have a history of war and who's to say bnext time it won't escelate leading to a 'minor' exchange of nukes...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely, and regardless of one's bias, it must be crystal clear that the most unstable, aggressive and dangerous government in the entire world is the US'. Infinitely more than any other nation on earth.

    And yet we somehow think it is okay for that warmongering pariah government to own the biggest arsenal of WMDs ever seen to continue to own those weapons, but not okay for a nation that has not started any wars in living memory to try to acquire their own?

    In particular when the former keeps threatening to attack the latter, and the nukes are nowadays the ONLY form of protection against the New Empire...

    Everyone has a right to defend themselves. This situation is solely the fault of the aggressive, warmongering foreign policy of the USA- and to a lesser degree, to the arsenal of WMDs a certain country in the Middle East possesses and is allowed to keep without so much as an objection.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Yes, but despite his claims he probably doesn't have nuclear weapons and even if he did he doesn't have missiles with enough range to hit US.

    lol if he didnt have nukes america would have got rid a long time ago for sure........maybe they can't hit the u.s. who knows, i dont think they're prepared to take that risk.........he could certainly kick up a stink anyways, that's why noone is provoking him, instead he is getting a say in negotiations........
    However, even if he did he's quite secure at the moment so why would he go for a doomsday scenario. It might not feel the same when he got's hungry mobs screaming at his door and nuking Seoul (which he hates much more than Washington) might seem a more attractive alternative.

    that's my point......if he did attack seoul that's all the reason america or anyone else would need to flatten n. korea, he's not stupid......
    That said the two worst places to have them at the moment are India and Pakistan - simply because they have a history of war and who's to say bnext time it won't escelate leading to a 'minor' exchange of nukes...

    i agree it's hardly ideal, however the fact they both have them at the minute means there is a stand-off.........and i'm sorry i fail to see how you can have a 'minor' exchange of nukes :chin: .........where would it end?....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apollo_69 wrote:
    lol if he didnt have nukes america would have got rid a long time ago for sure........maybe they can't hit the u.s. who knows, i dont think they're prepared to take that risk.........he could certainly kick up a stink anyways, that's why noone is provoking him, instead he is getting a say in negotiations........

    He's only claimed to have nukes recently. The Korean War ended in 1953. That's given the US plenty of time to get rid of him if they wanted. To be fair him and his father have been involved in plenty of negotiations with the US, South Korea and the UN since 1953, but given that North Korean infilitrators during this period have regularly raided south Korea and kidnapped Japanese civilians the North Koreans haven't really impressed anyone with their trustworthiness.


    i agree it's hardly ideal, however the fact they both have them at the minute means there is a stand-off.........and i'm sorry i fail to see how you can have a 'minor' exchange of nukes :chin: .........where would it end?....

    By minor I meant to differentiate between a war between Pakistan/India and the full scale nuclear holocaust which would have broken out in the event of the Soviets charging through the Fulda Gap. A US/UK/ France vs USSR exchange would have probably destroyed virtually all life on this planet (though possibly not cockroaches). An India/Pakistan exchange would possibly kill a billion, but it won 't wipe out life on earth. I put minor in speech marks because anything which kills that many people is only minor in relation to what could happen.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    With any M.A.D. strategy it all comes down to range, the whole basis of the strategy is to be able to hit each other from wherever. Hence the focus on the development and restriction of inter-contential missles - and the successfully tested (well once) nuke shield.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    With any M.A.D. strategy it all comes down to range, the whole basis of the strategy is to be able to hit each other from wherever. Hence the focus on the development and restriction of inter-contential missles - and the successfully tested (well once) nuke shield.

    I suspect that's the way we're going to go in nuclear weapons. No countries going to give them up so the next logical step is to try and defend against them with 'Star Wars II' and survivability against limited nuclear strikes.

    Pandora's box anyone?
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    That missile sheilds is something like 90% innefective so far. Its a waste of cash, because the Bush regeime wanted it out early to make the public feel safe, so its not even finished ATM.

    Wish they bloody would finish it. Fireworks night is going to rock soon. :thumb:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    At moment it doesn't work - but technology improves until it does become 100% effective. So countries get more nukes to swamp it....
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Like Russia?

    Hmm, it will never be 100% effective. Ever.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No? Probably not because as it becomes more effective other countries just look to ways to neutralize it. Its no different in principle in the battle between early bows and leather armour leading to plate mail and long bows and eventually to kevlar and high velocity bullets.

    Nukes aren't going to go away so countries will try and look at ways to neutralise them and to make there own nukes more effective to stop the enemy blocking their attacks...
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Russia is actually devolping nukes that can get through now.

    Kinda makes it all seem futile, no?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Russia is actually devolping nukes that can get through now.

    Kinda makes it all seem futile, no?

    For the arms manufacturers it isn't futile at all .........
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Ok... from the perspective of avergae joe watching his tax wasted on an amrs race, which when the product is released its out of date, it seems futile, as he gains nothing from it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Ok... from the perspective of avergae joe watching his tax wasted on an amrs race, which when the product is released its out of date, it seems futile, as he gains nothing from it.

    He gains jobs in certain states, he gets a bloated government with more jobs, he gets a false sense of security....
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