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Evidence obtained illegally.

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I've just heard a report on the news about Michael Jackson's trial. His lawyers are going to argue the fact that the evidence was gained illegally and therefore invalidates it.

(i'll try to get some specific examples later)

should courts allow evidence that has been obtained through illegal methods? and i don't mean evidence that has been gained through entrapment, but for example without a search warrant?

isn't evidence still evidence?

why should some evidence be allowed and others not? (talking now about all types, not jus that gained illegally) Surely some crucial piece of evidence could be disallowed?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Major evidence being disallowed happens all the time, and it's wank.

    But then if there weren't rules anything could be admitted, and we can't have that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Evidence obtained illegally.
    Originally posted by queenmab_roo
    I've just heard a report on the news about Michael Jackson's trial. His lawyers are going to argue the fact that the evidence was gained illegally and therefore invalidates it.

    (i'll try to get some specific examples later)

    should courts allow evidence that has been obtained through illegal methods? and i don't mean evidence that has been gained through entrapment, but for example without a search warrant?

    isn't evidence still evidence?

    why should some evidence be allowed and others not? (talking now about all types, not jus that gained illegally) Surely some crucial piece of evidence could be disallowed?

    Because it gives the police an incentive to forget about playing by the rules.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Evidence obtained illegally.
    Originally posted by queenmab_roo
    should courts allow evidence that has been obtained through illegal methods?

    No. If its wrong for the accused to break the law, why is it right for the prosecution to do it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but then the guilty may get off scot free?

    what if methods of repercussion were introduced for evidence obtained illegally?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by queenmab_roo
    but then the guilty may get off scot free?

    Well then don't use illegal evidence.
    Originally posted by queenmab_roo
    what if methods of repercussion were introduced for evidence obtained illegally?

    Not sure what you mean here.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    what if it's the only way to catch the criminal out?

    it'd be better if i have some examples, but as of yet i'm stuck.

    and by repurcussions i mean fines etc for using illegal methods as opposed to legal ones.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by queenmab_roo
    but then the guilty may get off scot free?

    what if methods of repercussion were introduced for evidence obtained illegally?

    The police look after their own.

    It's legal technicality that might sound daft to you, but is necessary for the justice system to operate fairly.
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    I don't agree with this. Evidence is evidence. Disregarding evidence for whatever reason, you're willingly letting a guilty person go free or an innocent person get convicted. If the evidence was illegally gained, then regard the obtainment of it as a crime to be trialed separately.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Zalbor
    I don't agree with this. Evidence is evidence. Disregarding evidence for whatever reason, you're willingly letting a guilty person go free or an innocent person get convicted. If the evidence was illegally gained, then regard the obtainment of it as a crime to be trialed separately.

    Opening a whole can of worms there.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Opening a whole can of worms there.

    it's a thread that was liable to do so.


    What would happen in the subsequent trial? Could convictions resting on the evidence be quashed? Or would there simply be punishment for obtaining the evidence?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, I believe convictions can be quashed if they are based on illegally obtained evidence. And rightly so.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Yes, I believe convictions can be quashed if they are based on illegally obtained evidence. And rightly so.

    Currently yes, but in future, if illegal evidence were to become admissable what then?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think illegal evidence will become admissable. I hope not anyway. But I wouldn't put it past that twat Blunkett.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    I don't think illegal evidence will become admissable. I hope not anyway. But I wouldn't put it past that twat Blunkett.

    Well, there was another thread on the possibilities of convictions resting on torture confessions. That's illegal evidence. So where does it stop?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree. Allowing evidence gained by torture to be used is fucking disgusting. :mad:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    I agree. Allowing evidence gained by torture to be used is fucking disgusting. :mad:

    Ahh, but supposing a tip-off about a bomb in central london was obtained through torture, are we to ignore it on moral grounds?
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    I agree. Allowing evidence gained by torture to be used is fucking disgusting. :mad:
    In that way, it might not be true at all. The tortured might have only said what they wanted to hear.

    But imagine this: Someone has killed many people and will probably kill more. However he has covered his tracks well enough so that the only incriminating evidence found was obtained illegally. If you refuse this evidence, you let him go free and kill more people. You seriously think that is the right thing to do??
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Ahh, but supposing a tip-off about a bomb in central london was obtained through torture, are we to ignore it on moral grounds?

    Search for the bomb and evacuate of neccesary. But using evidence gained by torture to prosecute someone is wrong. It will only lead to torture being used more routinely.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Zalbor
    But imagine this: Someone has killed many people and will probably kill more. However he has covered his tracks well enough so that the only incriminating evidence found was obtained illegally. If you refuse this evidence, you let him go free and kill more people. You seriously think that is the right thing to do??

    Difficult one. But if you sanction the use of torture (which is what allowing evidence gained by torture is effectively doing), where does that leave us?
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Difficult one. But if you sanction the use of torture (which is what allowing evidence gained by torture is effectively doing), where does that leave us?
    I'm not talking about torture. Let's say they broke into his house and found pieces of clothes from all the victims.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Zalbor
    I'm not talking about torture. Let's say they broke into his house and found pieces of clothes from all the victims.

    Why didn't they obtain a warrant?
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Why didn't they obtain a warrant?
    I don't know all what is needed to obtain a warrant, so I can't answer that. But this is hypothetical. For whatever reason, they couldn't. Or maybe no one who could believed he was the murderer. What then?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The police should not be above the law.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The right to privacy should come above all the others, you can not have free speach or association if your house is always being broken into by the police.

    The police should always always obey the law and if they dont then they should be punished harder than others. We pay them to uphold the law!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    The police should always always obey the law and if they dont then they should be punished harder than others. We pay them to uphold the law!

    I think I may agree with that concept. The police, more than anyone else, should be most accountable to the law on the basis that they are supposed to uphold and emulate it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmm, tough one.
    It does raise a huge moral dilemma.

    The police shouldn't routinely gather evidence illegally. I think everything has a procedure and it should be followed without question.
    However I also think it is highly imorral that someone accused as something as disgusting as what jackson is being accused of has to resort to technicalities in order to get the case dropped.

    An innocent person would refute whatever evidence the police put forward instead of resorting to tactics like this.

    I think a middle ground should be followed. The officers who didn't follow procedure should be punished, pay docked, that sort of thing.
    However evidence is still evidence and should be submitted to the court.

    n.b.Im not condoning the police actions, they should have obtained a legal warrant to search but that shouldn't affect the evidence that was gathered.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you let the evidence be used in court then there is an incentive for the police to gather it.

    It should never ever be used because that way the police know they are wasting their time unless they follow the law.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If the police are allowed to use illegal evidence (i.e. break the law), then what other laws are they allowed to break? Assault? Kidnapping? Torture? Murder?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They're not allowed to torture but if other countries do it we can use the result.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    They're not allowed to torture but if other countries do it we can use the result.

    Define 'use the result' prosectute in court on the evidence? Or respond to a bomb threat?
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