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Iraq...what the hell do we do now?

As far as I'm concerned arguements over the legality of the war etc are now relatively pointles. Yes it would be nice to know, but what real difference is it going to make?

We have got ourselves in this mess and it has to be delt with, the US are already looking to pull out quick because of the election coming up there soon ish.

But to my mind we cant just pull out, what would become of Iraq, civil war? Extreamist Islam? Who knows, but it wouldnt be good.

Puts loads more troops in to stabilise the place? I just think they would be seen as more of the invading force.

The best option (which is still crap) is that the US pulls back from control, the whole thing is handed over to the UN and we try and get troops from Muslim countries there insted.

Anyone got any better ideas, the whole thing is really depressing because I cant see a way out of it that isnt disasterous.
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let me get this out of the way first:

    We. Told. Them. So.!!!
    :mad:


    Back to the topic..

    I agree with you about the best course of action: immediate withdrawal of Western troops (or at least those of the war cheerleading nations: US, Britain, Australia, Spain and Italy- and probably Poland as well), replaced by an predominantly-Arab multi-national force under the command of the UN. Handover of power to the Iraqis, and elections to be held in the very near future- 6 months max. And if a Muslim fundamentalist party or Saddam sympathisers win the election, then so be it.

    It won't be perfect but is the best (and only viable) solution available.

    I would couple this with UN sanctions against the US and Britain, in order to start the very long process of regaining the trust of an Arab and Muslim world that feels rightly persecuted under these crusading Christian warmongering hypocrites we have for leaders.

    Actually, scrap that last part. Why should our countries pay for the actions of those two murdering bastards? Send them to the International War Crimes Tribunal instead. They wouldn’t look out of place sitting next to Milosevic anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Following on from that is the question, what do you think they will do?

    To be honest it looks like under pressure from the Democrates who will be running an anti-war stance the US will pull out too fast and leave the Iraqis just to get on with it. This will of course breed another whole country of people who hate the US.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would like to know how you would go about holding elections within six months. Is there even a voting register? As has been well reported some places are still without water and other necessitys, you can't be serious about holding elections until that has been sorted? Even the Red Cross has cut back is presence because of the bombings, hardly a situation in which elections could take place. Also did you know that over 90 political partys have formed since the 'end' of the war?

    If the coalition left it would be catastrophic IMO, leaving civil war behind, who knows where that would leave normal Iraqis. Things are not as bad as they seem, I think its just the anti-war people who are trying to claim some sort of victory. Since the war began I've had a feeling that some people actually wanted it to be a spectacular failure so they could be 'right'.

    Saddam Hussein is a very bad man you know, I'm sure none of you will suggest that Bush or Blair could ever be compared to him.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not as bad as the seem? Well they seem pretty bloody bad to me, suicide bombings virtualy every day, 30 plus attacks on US troops in Bagdad alone every day. At least one Allied forces solider dying every day.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Iraq is a big country recently invaded and now occupied by foreign troops, there was always going to be a certain amount of resistance. Have you noticed that everytime a suicide bomber strikes the highest number of casualtys tends to be Iraqi civillians? Don't be fooled into thinking these terrorists (and that is what the are) are doing it in Iraqs best intrests.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well if anything, godscop, it only goes to demonstrate that they've learned the rules of the game from us, after all neither have our forces been sent in for Iraq's best interests.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why could I possibly think that these attacks are in the best interest of the country.

    I am just suggesting that the situation is getting less stable, something the Americans have eluded too, and in many places it could well be classed as unstable.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not suggesting the coalition leaves and that's that. I'm suggesting it is replaced. I won't pretend that a mainly-Arab UN peace-keeping force would be received with open arms. But it would be a massive improvement in every sense.

    Far from the portrait of a happy, liberated people eternally grateful to the Americans the Bush government has been trying to push, the Iraqis are mighty pissed off at the continuing occupation by US troops, the lack of progress with water, electricity and other basic utilities, the lawlessness that makes Saddam-era Iraq look like a model of harmony, the installation of a US puppet regime that hasn't done much of anything (to put it mildly) in the 6 months or so they've been in power.

    But above all, they are mighty pissed off about a trigger-happy, obnoxious cowboy US troops who don't have the slightest clue about peace-keeping or establishing good relations with the locals. The Iraqis might be glad that Saddam is gone, but they're certainly not grateful or happy at all with the continuing presence of what they see as a foreign, illegal, murderous invader who is seen as responsible for more and a decade of misery, bombings, famine and death.

    Get the coalition troops out of Iraq now, and for good.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But above all, they are mighty pissed off about a trigger-happy, obnoxious cowboy US troops who don't have the slightest clue about peace-keeping or establishing good relations with the locals.

    I can't argue with that, I was talking to a Royal Marine on leave about two months ago, I asked him about their feelings towards the American forces. I can't remember what his exact words were but it was something along the lines of them being useless cowboy bastards.

    The coalition should stay until Iraq has a proper security force of its own.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Al, a little tidbit to make your blood boil further...

    http://publish.uk.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/279243.html

    Looks like the spectre of past atrocities by Washington and our trigger happy Pentagon powermongers hasn't been forever buried after all.

    What is most alarming and most condemning of this current administration (not mentioned in this article but which has been pointed out in the BBC World report) is that Rummy was also Secretary of Defence under Ford whilst the "investigation" was being carried out "quietly" by the Pentagon.

    Can we hope against hope that some chance for his indictment and conviction for a lifetime of supporting crimes against humanity and attempted coverup might be drawing ever closer?

    Present day report on US military atrocities against Iraqi citizens
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Depressing reading Clan. :(

    Things now seem desperately out of control. According to the CIA itself there are now 50,000 resistance fighters in Iraq. It looks like things will get rather worse, and that Bush might be planning an early exit. Full story.

    A short while ago we were discussing the increasing similarities between Iraq and Vietnam. Don't be surprised if we are yet to witness a scene similar to this:

    158.jpg
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    gwst, you'd best send a note round to #10 because obviously the British leadership hasnt learned the historic lesson of which you speak.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I see that some of the more rabid warmongering scumbags have started a "let's save my own ass" exercise. Namely Saddam's former best friend Donald Rumsfield. Look what he has been saying...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The problem is that any of the slightly less shite options will cost quite a lot of money, and the American public are getting less and less willing to pay for it. So they will vote for someone who says, "lets get our boys back home" and it will get worse.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As usual it will be down to the UN to foot the bill.

    Because I get the feeling the second the Iraqis regain control or their finances and their oil (if they are ever allowed that by the Americans) are going to say "not a penny from our revenues shall go to the policing or reconstruction of Iraq. Those who broke it should pay for it".

    So then every UN nation would have contribute billions towards the mending of something they didn't want happening in the first place.

    In the worse scenario Iraq will descend into a permanent civil war zone between factions while the rest of the world gradually lose the will to put things right, and eventually leave the fighting factions all to themselves.

    A familiar story really. :(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps things might progress further to the point where Rummy might even backtrack to say...

    "I should have said, I believed that I was serving the legitimately elected President and Vice President of the nation, Jeb and the Supreme Court said they were legitimately elected...".

    or how about...

    "Show me categorically where I ever said I was ever actually the lawfully appointed Secretary of Defence, I'm not even really here and didnt really launch any invasion in the first place!".

    :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    did i just hear jack straw on the radio saying ...the uk are ready to send more troops if requested!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The same UK which unequivocally protested any military involvement in the first place?

    Hmmmm sounds more and more as if Tony and his gang have decided to adopt the Royal "we" and let the people be buggered, eh?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    if the americans are forced out now ...lets not have any of this pull out shit ...it will be possibly the biggest act of vandalism in modern times.
    thriving markets and shopping malls ...rising property prices in the suburbs ...before ten years of amrican driven sanctions ...but even then property prices were rising ...reduced to rubble. bombed back to the stone age almost ...no electicity, no fresh water ...for huge sections of the population, no work ...no police force in place, no administration of any meaning at all in place ...
    it could actualy be possible that the global outrage would demand UN sanctions against america and possibly the UK.
    it's a crazy enough world. get the impression we might just be loosing this war?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be honest I can just see the US people saying;

    "well we tried to help you Iraqis and now you dont want our help, well we'll just leave you to it then"

    I think the US will continue with it isolationist policies too, and with parts of the world becoming more and more hostile this is only going to increase.

    You have to remember how little a lot of Americans know of world politics, and more to the point how little some of them care.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    To be honest I can just see the US people saying;

    "well we tried to help you Iraqis and now you dont want our help, well we'll just leave you to it then"

    I think the US will continue with it isolationist policies too, and with parts of the world becoming more and more hostile this is only going to increase.

    You have to remember how little a lot of Americans know of world politics, and more to the point how little some of them care.
    what a sad post!
    sad 'cos it's so friggin true ...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The whole thing is pretty bloody tragic isnt it. Made worse because it was so avoidable.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All this happen Iraq have oil...
    Burundi have not oil.
    Botswana have not oil.
    etc,etc...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    all this happen cause Iraq has oil...
    Burundi has not oil...
    Botswana has not oil....
    :(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Partly yes, but its not as simple as that, both Bush and Blair se themselves as being on a moral crusade.

    They are 'doing good' even if the world doesnt see that yet, Blair has more than once compared himself with Churchil for gods sake!

    Thats why its not a huge concern if there are protests because they feel, or at least did feel they would be proven right in the end because of the greater good.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    Partly yes, but its not as simple as that, both Bush and Blair se themselves as being on a moral crusade.

    They are 'doing good' even if the world doesnt see that yet, Blair has more than once compared himself with Churchil for gods sake!

    Thats why its not a huge concern if there are protests because they feel, or at least did feel they would be proven right in the end because of the greater good.
    Never mind Chuchill- Dubya believes he's on a mission from God Himself!!!

    Shouldn't we be deeply worried that a man who believe such things is the leader of the only superpower and in charge of the nuclear button??? Sometimes I wonder if his IQ even hits double figures...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How likely do people think is the prospect of civil war in Iraq with the North and the South spliting and going at each other?

    Would we be able to stop this happening?

    Personally I think it was really only Saddam that stopped them from doing this a while ago. I just doubt they could ever work in a parliment together.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Apparently there seems to be emerging a majority of people in Iraq who would choose a Muslim theocracy as the preferred form of government. If this is true will the wishes of the majority be respected? Or will Bush ensure that a "democratic" puppet regime truly respectful of the West be installed instead?

    Yes, I could see a civil war between Islamists and other factions emerging. Let's hope it does not come to that...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thats a good point though, if the majority choose to be ruled over by a hard-line group of muslims, isnt that democracy?

    Then what, I mean if they then start spouting hatred for the west (which is possible) then we have to liberate them again, and keep liberating them till the choose someone we like.
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