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The Sham of taxation
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
This Government collects £37.7 billion each year in transport-related taxation, yet only spends £7 billion on transport. Supposedly the tax goes to paying for, say, public transport (total spending: £1 billion) but it doesnt.
This is why taxation is a complete sham, and the reasons behind it are little more than lies.
Although when you see how ridiculously extortionate public transport is, its hard to see why ANYONE would willingly use puiblic transport when they have a car parked in their garage.
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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From that point of view the figures you show make perfect sense......
Consider also that tax on cars should fund the NHS in dealing with all the road accidents, traffic police and fire service. I am sure there are many other associated direct costs also........
I do agree however that more should be spent on public transport.
What you say is true concerning the cost effectiveness of Public transport when one already has a car but given the cost of purchasing the car + tax + insurance + maintenace then public transport may well be more cost effective..........
Well they are. They tax us till the pips squeak, and spend it on chartering RAF jets to take them on holiday to the Carribbean.
Labour = filth.
That was a party political broadcast by the Conservative Party. :rolleyes:
Meanwhile in the real world... You are not being taxed "till the pips squeak" when Denis Healey made that comment in 1976 the top rate of tax was something like 87%, it's less than half that today. Yes the Blairs have a habit of over indulging themselves with the trappings of office, I agree it is disgusting but don't tar the whole of the Labour movement with the same brush.
Britain is a low tax country. You don't happen to mention the report released the other day which said that British company directors were paid so much more than their counterparts in other Western countries and that the gap between the average wage and company directors was "obscene" - their words not mine. Also the fact that due to these "obscene" wage rates for managers, the statistics show that two-thirds of people in this country live under half average income because of the pay of these people drags up the average.
I don't think the tax system is fair as it stands, it needs revision at the top end. Is it fair that middle income earners such as teachers and policemen are now paying the same rate of tax as Richard Branson? Whatever your view on the tax burden the case for urgent revision of the tax system is compelling so we can reduce the burden on middle income and lower income workers and take more from those who can afford it. The 40% rate should not be applied to many of those who are in it and so those at the top should pay more so they can pay less.
Incidentally, perhaps you'd like to remember that it was "low tax" Maggie who increased the tax burden on the poor to give tax breaks to the rich. VAT doubled and was put on more items, the increases in local government tax through the Poll Tax and then the Council Tax and the fuel duty escalator which began in the 80s.
Well said kev...........
Britain is not a low tax country, it has low income tax made up with high NI contributions, extortionate fuel tax, high VAT (including VAT on fuel and tampons- so much for Blairs election promise to do away with it)- Blair wrote the guide for "stealth tax"- and ministers that are corrupt to the core. And dont witter on about Tory corruption, Tory ministers had their toes sucked in Chelsea shirts, Labour ministers speed and get away with it, drive in bus lanes and get away with it, then get us to pay for them to go to fucking Acapulco to arse-lick the sodding Yanks.
And the whole Labour movement CAN be tarred with the same brush. Derek Hatton and Ken Livingstone in the 1980s, Sheffield Council in the early 1990s, Doncaster council from about 250BC, Durham Council in the late 1990s, Bernie Ecclestone, Joe Ashton (a man whos had more arrests in brothels than Ive had hot dinners), Boateng and his racism. And thats just off teh top of my head.
You really do seem to be very naive when it comes down to your darling Red Fascists. Read Private Eye, then you might know that your darling Labour government sold the Inland Revenue buildings to a company based in Bermuda way below market value, and then got us to stump up the high rent, and you might know that most local council corruption occurs in your darling Labour-controlled councils. Like Brighton, like Bradford, like Leeds, like Lambeth.
I have no political leaning either way, Im certainly no Tory, but Id have Thatcher back any day judging by the last two PMs and Shadow PMs- ooh, yes, lets be ruled by Neil fucking Kinnock, the man who wrote the book "How to be bent, get moved to Europe then be more bent".
In fact Britain takes one of the lowest % of GDP in all tax in the Western world. Not just income tax. Most stealth taxes can be traced back to the Thatcher years - the fuel escalator started then, VAT was hiked up in the 80s and was put on more and more items. Tory ministers also took bribes for asking questions in Parliament, determined whether someone would get a council house on whether they'd vote Tory and sold arms to a country we were going to war with, although of course much more important is Labour ministers getting out of a few driving penalty tickets! :rolleyes:
Had a release of hot air then did we? Of course Ken Livingstone was so corrupt and did such an awful job at running the GLC that we voted him back in 2000 and will do again in 2004. I also understand that Liverpool Council in the 80s was also reasonably popular with their residents or they wouldn't have voted Hatton in time after time. Hence why Thatcher had to get rid of the Metropolitan Councils because people liked what they did and it conflicted with her aims. What about my local (Tory) council in Barnet? They've just put our council tax up by 40% to fund the Mayor getting his office renovated, a huge increase in councillor's budgets and to fund councillors fact finding missions to the Carribean. All local government has a tendency to be corrupt especially when one party dominates it. That's the fault of the system. Bernie Ecclestone isn't in the Labour movement. If Joe Ashton wants to visit brothels then who are you to say it's wrong? You wouldn't mind if he wore a blue rosette. :rolleyes: Also please provide examples of Paul Boateng's racism, or do you mean he advocates the causes of ethnic minorities - shock horror how dare he?! :rolleyes:
Oooohh the government conned us out of one Inland Revenue building. Bad though that is I don't think that's comparable to the Tory ministers who personally profited from the privatisation agenda by buying hundreds of shares at launch and landing themselves cushy directorships at several hundred grand a time. Like I said, most councils tend to be corrupt, especially when one party dominates - if you could find a safe Tory council I'm sure you'd find corruption there too - you might like to re-read my comments on Barnet Council.
Thanks for the well said but Lib Dem? :eek2: I couldn't defend their policies it'd be like a political hokey cokey:
#
We'll put our left wing in;
We'll pull our left wing out;
In, Out, In, Out, We'll send them all about;
As soon as we've got your vote we'll u-turn right around;
Cos that's what it's all about....
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Left wing, Right wing, we don't know!
We'll put our right wing in;
We'll pull our right wing out;
In, Out, In, Out, We'll send them all about;
As soon as we've got your vote we'll u-turn right around;
Cos that's what it's all about....
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Left wing, Right wing, we don't know!
We'll change our party name once;
We'll change our party name twice;
Once, twice, thrice, Nice! We'll change it all again;
As soon as you've got used to it we'll change it all again;
Cos that's what it's all about....
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Left wing, Right wing, we don't know!
We'll put your taxes up;
We'll put your taxes down;
Up, Down, Up, Down, We'll change them all around;
As soon as we've got your vote we'll u-turn right around;
Cos that's what it's all about....
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Left wing, Right wing, we don't know!
The polls go up;
The polls go down;
Up, Down, Up, Down, They fly all around;
As soon as we've got your vote you'll change your mind;
Cos that's what it's all about....
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Ohhhh, do the LibDem Pokey!
Left wing, Right wing, you don't know!
#
I just came up with that. (and it is copyrighted)
But if Im such a Tory bastard I find it quite weird how whenever I take trusted tests like the Political Compass I come out as slightly left-wing, its really freaky that is. I freely admit I believe in what many people think is Tory bastardism- I believe in the free market, I believe that people should be more responsible for their own destiny, I believe that if a company wants to pay its MD £10squillion a year then it should be allowed to, and I believe that a company's sole responsibility is to create profit for itself. It doesnt rpovide jobs as a social service, its provides jobs to create wealth for itself- and if its not creating enough wealth, then jobs will go. Its not nice, but its tough shit.
However, I do believe that the market has a responsibility to the environment and to teh country. I believe in a minimum wage, I believe in the welfare state (though I think people shouldnt just get dole money in a cheque every week), I believe in nationalised utilities. But I dont believe that someone should be taxed at 80% just because they deign to earn more than someone who cleans the public bogs in town. I firmly believe that the free market should be taxed on profit, I dont believe that individuals should be taxed to subsidise jobs, or to subsidise private utilities, or to pay people more than the bare minimum in welfare benefits, or to subsidise political electioneering (like what Blair has done).
Oh, and one last thing- I dont know any union officials' names, but hey, I dont know many MDs names either. But at the last check the CE of Unison was paid £90k pa, plus pension benefits, plus a large London penthouse at a peppercorn rent, plus cars, plus sundries, whilst presiding over a union whose numbers have dramatically fallen in the last ten years, whilst presiding over a union whos membership fees have risen dramatically.
And as for your apparent hatred of Branson, why do you detest someone who built himself up from nothing so much? Should hard work and entrepeneurial spirit not be rewarded, because if you dont think it should we might as well all give up and become bus drivers. Arriva are always on the look-out for drivers, you know.
If only BA could follow suit...
But seriously, Branson can be annoying and I'm sure is far from perfect, but he's done a number of things right and in many aspects has helped spice up competition in several industries.
Although I must say the Virgin group is a bit too large for comfort. There is little they can't provide you with. Travel, finances, weddings, entertainment, wine, mobile phones and a few others I probably forget.
He built the Virgin brand up from one knackered old Boeing into a huge conglomerate. He had a public school education, but you cannot argue that what he achieved is quite a lot. Maybe he was lucky, but meh. Its still an achievement (and I even think hes an odious man, but pheh). Same with Brian Souter of Stagecoach- a complete c*nt but he built his company up from nothing.
He was totaly skint and then started renting this little bit of space and it grew from there. He sold the company for a couple of hundred million I think.
By the way, I wasnt being entirely serious about the 'tax and spend', I've never really been able to understand why that is a bad thing, is there any other type of government?
You admit yourself you believe in Tory bastardism as you put it, so it's not for me to explain your apparent left wing results in the Political Compass test. What annoys me about big business is that although they're happy to sack hundreds of workers on the minimum wage because the company's going through a bad patch, they never sack MDs and they never even cut MDs pay - the sheer hypocrisy of it all is what galls me.
The fact is the market is not the most efficient allocator of resources and it will not exercise responsibility to the nation and the environment if we don't have taxes on pollution and workers right's legislation. Where do you think the money will come from to pay for decent public services and nationalised utilities if not from taxation? Now at the moment we have two options, we carry on with the present system and let more and more middle income and low income families slowly move into higher and higher tax brackets to pay for the necessary investment in our public services or we reform the tax system to reduce the burden on these people and take the money from those who can afford to pay it. Please provide an example of Blair using taxes to subsidise political engineering - unless you mean investment in the NHS and schools is all part of a political stunt?! At least Blair didn't go to war or release an inflationary boom to win him elections unlike a certain PM you seem to admire.
£90k is nothing compared to what these managers earn which is about four/five times larger when you include all their perks, private healthcare, gym membership, company car, company flat, private pension etc. These aren't our most successful industries either, these are companies like Corus, Marconi and BT which are doing appallingly badly - and I didn't even include their share options. I would say that £90k is a fair amount for CEOs and the heads of major organisations but £500k? Even you must agree that's a bit excessive.
I don't hate Branson, I mentioned him as an example along with Alan Shearer and Elton John. I agree hard work and enterprise should be rewarded, that's why I believe the government should open a National Investment Bank so anyone who wants to start their own business can with minimal profits being taken from them. However, I refuse to accept that allowing the high fliers to fly should mean we let them crap all over those beneath them, I believe in a decent society where the strong help the weak and if this means taking taxes from their superfluous income to provide others with the basics then so be it.
Labour will do it when we get a new leader as I said it's either tax a minority of rich people more or allow more middle and lower income earners to fall into the higher tax brackets - simple political engineering of whose votes matter most to Labour will sort that out. That's why I expect the ceiling on National Insurance will be abolished in the next budget and I wouldn't rule out a rise in VAT to 20% either although I don't agree with that. I also wouldn't fully expect the old "No changes to income tax" line to be in the 2005 manifesto more a "No unnecessary changes to income tax".
Who knows what the Lib Dems will do? I think they got rid of their "1p extra on the basic rate to fund education" policy. Makes sense to them really, most of the seats they're after are Tory seats in the South so they will probably not go into the next election as a tax raising party or at least will be playing up their right wing credentials.
I am the enemy within!
Seriously though, people in the Labour movement have tried to overthrow the establishment for decades from the outside and it hasn't worked so I reckon trying to overthrow it from the inside is worth a shot. Although I'm not 100% certain as to what you meant by your comment.
The free market wont do everything of its own accord, it needs to be cajoled sometimes, but why do you disagree with taxing profit of corporations not taxing work? Like with so many socialists, its not about "equalising wealth", its about spite, pure and simple. I dont see these union executives turning down their swish London flats, or their top-of-the-range chauffeur-driven Mercedes cars, or their exclusive gym memberships in order to help the people theyre supposed to be helping.
Im no sympathiser of the rich, although because you cant read you think I think Im a Tory bastard. But Im not someone who thinks that just because someone works themselves up to earn money then that means that they should have it all taken away from them. Because, at the end of the day, if you own a mobile telephone, branded clothes, Sky TV, anything above the bare minimum to live on, you are a hypocrite- you earn 95% more than someone in Africa, say, yet I dont see you willingly parting with 90% of your wages to help them.
She means its easy to witter on about the poor downtrodden poor from your ivory tower. If you dont have to work 25% tax means nothing.