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Men and masculinity

MorbidNomadMorbidNomad Posts: 2 Literally just got here
This discussion was created from comments split from: Let's Talk About Men! - The Mix.

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  • MorbidNomadMorbidNomad Posts: 2 Literally just got here
    edited September 24
    Just look at how many men commit violent crimes vs women. Prostitution, porn, objectification, and much more is all invented by men, but no one takes sexual violence seriously. If you think I'm wrong then I'm sorry

    mod edit: post has been heavily edited (see mod message below)

    The mod team has had a pretty lengthy discussion about this post... :)

    We want to allow space for this conversation to happen. The act of unity showed by you guys in responding to this and disputing the post is genuinely powerful. It shows a real strength of community that you guys are willing to thoroughly dispute and dismantle a point of view you don't agree with, and there's so much value in that happening in an open setting.

    And - who knows - this might also lead @MorbidNomad to change their perspective. It's important for us to allow people space to express questionable views and grow. Especially when this perspective may potentially be fuelled by very real and valid personal experiences.

    That said, we're also about protecting the safety of this space. And how you all feel and how this might impact someone emotionally is our highest priority. Points of view (however reprehensible we might think they are) are okay, but anything that makes the community feel unsafe or uninclusive is not okay.

    To try and strike the best balance, we've edited the main post (and quotes of it) to remove the parts that felt most problematic and pointed. Our hope is that this preserves the conversation as a whole (and your amazing responses) but avoids the thread making people feel unsafe or unwelcome. This is a safe, inclusive space first and foremost. :)

    If you want to talk this through, drop @The Mix a PM or report the post.
  • BenMaBenMa Posts: 44 Boards Initiate
    edited September 24
    Just look at how many men commit violent crimes vs women. Prostitution, porn, objectification, and much more is all invented by men, but no one takes sexual violence seriously. If you think I'm wrong then I'm sorry

    Hey! I appreciate the fact that you have a very strong opinion on this topic, and whilst I agree that those words can be used to describe some men - they can only be used to describe individuals! I don't necessarily think your gender 100% depicts your personality (that said, gender is indeed a factor for certain things).

    For example, males make up 31%, or one in every three, of those aged between 16 and 74 who reported having been the victims of domestic abuse since they were 16. That's according to a large survey of crime in England and Wales, 2018.

    That's just one single area where your point could be disputed. Surely if all men are cruel, none of us could possibly be victims of domestic abuse?

    I wanted to make this post to potentially remind everyone reading that it's perfectly acceptable to hold an opinion, but it's important you make your opinion known sensitively - for example not on blog that aims to break down social roles and stigmas, and probably not on a discussion board that lots of young people turn to for support and having a safe space.

    I apologise if I come across confrontational in this post, that's most certainly not my intention!! I did however, just want to challenge a strong and potentially hurtful viewpoint.

    All the best.
    Children, after all, are not just adults-in-the-making. They are people whose current needs and rights and experiences must be taken seriously. – Alfie Kohn
    MikeAidanLiamchubbydumplingThatFelixGuy
  • MikeMike Screen addict 🎮 LondonPosts: 2,989 Community Manager
    edited September 24
    I agree with @BenMa here. There are some points in your post absolutely worthy of discussion, like the porn industry and sexual violence and the connections those things have to men.

    However, it's an extremely sweeping statement to say the world would be better if men didn't exist. Certainly here, you'll find a lot of male-identifying people who spend their free time helping other people and whom have almost certainly experienced their share of hardship, including sexual violence and different kinds of abuse. It's worth being mindful of your audience.

    There are problems with masculinity - that I agree with - but it's another claim entirely to write off an entire population of people. These things are almost always more nuanced than that.

    Do you have any personal experience that has led to you having this view, @MorbidNomad?

    Edit: I've also split these comments off into Politics & Debate and removed the last line of your post, @MorbidNomad, as it was arguably hate speech.
    All behaviour is a need trying to be met.
    AidanLiamchubbydumplingBenMa
  • LaineLaine Llama Mama Gone for GooPosts: 2,467 Boards Champion
    I get where you're coming from and these words sadly could be used to describe some men. 
    I don't think personally however I would paint them all with the same brush it's not really fair. :)

    I've had friends of both sexes and they are great. I've had some girl friends who weren't really nice so I definitely think it's down to the individual more. 

    Men experience domestic violence too, a shocking thing that really shouldn't happen to anyone ❤️

    Masculinity does have some issues especially for men, who feel they have to be strong, emotionless etc it's unfortunate.

    We have some noticeable males around the mix community who are just fab. Users and some mods and staff members who give their time to support others. At the end of the day I'm sure we're all here for same reason when you strip it down. To support and get support :)


    🌈Positive thoughts🌈

    "What's gonna be left of the world if you're not in it?" ~ Bastille

    "Here's to the ones that we got
    Cheers to the wish you were here, but you're not" ~ Maroon 5
    AidanLiamBenMa
  • AidanAidan Clever idiot Posts: 2,702 Boards Champion
    Prostitution, porn, objectification, and much more is all invented by men
    Blood transfusion, fertiliser, vaccination, and toilets were also invented by men and these have saved and improved so many peoples' lives. Not all men are bad, and an entire sex can't collectively take ownership of problems the same way they couldn't take ownership of solutions either. The average man had as much say the invention of porn or prostitition as he did the invention of blood tranfustion and toilets.

    Just look at how many men commit violent crimes vs women. 
    Men are also more likely to be the victim of violence! Between March 2018-2019 64% of UK homicide victims were male, and it is scary for a man to be at twice the risk of murder as a woman.

    no matter how much you argue that it's not the case.
    I bet we all wish we'd read this before any of us tried to reason with you :lol: I can't respect that opinion, but I can respect a woman as an individual and a human being the same way the vast majority of men can. Problems do exist with men, as do some with women, but your comments are very sweeping and discriminatory. If you had made similar generalisations about a race or a religion or a sexuality- and not about the male sex- I think your comments might have received much worse reception.
    "Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
    LiamBenMa
  • AidanAidan Clever idiot Posts: 2,702 Boards Champion
    edited September 24
    Kinda wanted to expand on my point I touched on about men and discrimination.

    Is it okay to say this?-
    Just look at how many men commit violent crimes vs women. Prostitution, porn, objectification, and much more is all invented by men, but no one takes sexual violence seriously. If you think I'm wrong then I'm sorry

    And if it is okay to say that, is it then okay to say this?-
    (and obvs this is not what I actually think)
    Just look at how many muslims commit violent crimes vs non-muslims. Prostitution, porn, objectification, and much more is all invented by muslims, but no one takes sexual violence seriously. If you think I'm wrong then I'm sorry

    I don't think it's okay to make comments like the first one about men anyway, but it got me thinking about how even-more-wrong it'd be if it was something else besides men. If you replace it was a race or a religion it's suddenly very racist, but if it's about the male sex then why isn't it sexist to the same level of abhorrence?
    "Do, or do not, there is no try" <(•.•)>              
    LiamAnch0r33BenMa
  • LiamLiam mint Posts: 1,645 Extreme Poster
    Is the post in itself not just a hate speech? 

    I feel like if the latter in @Aidan ‘s comment was posted then the thread would’ve been deleted without question.

    This post is potentially damaging and it can cause some serious upsets. 


    independent_Anch0r33LaineAidanAlexBenMa
  • independent_independent_ Resident Coffee Addict ScotlandPosts: 5,352 Part of The Furniture
    I am sorry but even as a woman I think this is very sexist and hateful towards men.

    Not all men are this way. I know countless wonderful men who have made a real difference to me and who are some of the most genuine, kind people I’ve ever met. I have a partner who is extremely respectful of not just myself but all women. My dad has openly condemned the disrespectful behaviour of other men around him. 

    Yes, some men are manipulative, violent, disrespectful, etc. But that is a minority and it is very unfair (and sexist) to label all men in this way. Imagine if a man had posted similar about behaviours that are associated with women?
    “Sometimes the people around you won’t understand your journey. They don’t need to, it’s not for them.”
    Anch0r33LaineAidanLiamBenMaThatFelixGuy
  • Anch0r33Anch0r33 Crazy Rat Lady 🐀 Posts: 561 Incredible Poster
    As a woman, this post really does disgust me. I understand where your view point is coming from, and I also understand that you may have had negative experiences with men. 

    This does not prove true for all men though. As many above me have previously stated, men have contributed much to this world. It is unfair to make sweeping statements about a certain gender. I truly believe if a post like this was made about women that it would receive an uproar all the same. 

    You want to talk about sexual violence, lets start by talking about how many men do not report sexual violence as they are less likely to be believed. I know more men that have opened up to me about sexual abuse than women and that is a fact. This has a devastating impact on mens mental health. 

    Lets talk about how men are more likely to commit suicide because they are less likely to speak up about issues due to this toxic situation. Why should men fear speaking up? Women mock men for speaking up, women cry rape when it isn't true... why should men suffer because women are more likely to be believed??

     Let's take a look at some statistics - 
    Males are more likely to be victims of a personal crime than females. 
    In 2017/18, 7.9% of females reported experiencing domestic abuse in the last year, compared to 4.2% of males.
    There were 613 homicide victims in 2016/17 excluding the Hillsborough disaster, of which, 71% were male and 29% were female. 
     males were significantly more likely to be a victim of violence (2.1%) and robbery (0.3%) than females (1.3% and 0.2%, respectively)
    There was a significantly smaller proportion of females who were a victim of a violent crime in 2016/17 than males (2.1% of males and 1.3% of females). There was a higher proportion of males reporting prevalence of violence from a stranger (1.3%) compared to females (0.4% from a stranger)1
     There was a significantly greater proportion of male victims of all violence in 2016/17 in every age group except 55 to 64 where there were more female victims (but no significant difference).
    In 2017/18, 4.4% of children aged 10 to 15 overall were a victim of violent crime. As with non-violent personal crime, a significantly higher proportion of male children (5.8%) were a victim than female children (3.0%). 
    Domestic abuse in both males and females has significantly decreased since 2004/05
    Of those who were victims of partner abuse in 2017/18, more male victims reported physical injuries overall (31.8%) compared with 22.7% of females

    I could go on but I'll let anyone who is interested read the rest of it here... on the official government page... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759770/women-criminal-justice-system-2017..pdf

    And yes, there is categories where the statistics go against men, but it is also true that you made a sweeping statement against men, and I don't know about anyone else on here but I don't find sweeping statements very welcome here. 

    If you have had personal issues with men, please do share them so we can support you, but please, please, please do not make sweeping statements in a safe space for ALL genders. I for one support all humans no matter who they are or what they identify as and believe this is a very inclusive space that doens't need to be ruined by sweeping statements. 
    👁️👄👁️
    independent_LiamAidanBenMa
  • MikeMike Screen addict 🎮 LondonPosts: 2,989 Community Manager
    edited September 24
    Mod update below (spoilered so we don't intrude too much!) (reply here if you like)

    The mod team has had a pretty lengthy discussion about this post... :)

    We want to allow space for this conversation to happen. The act of unity showed by you guys in responding to this and disputing the post is genuinely powerful. It shows a real strength of community that you guys are willing to thoroughly dispute and dismantle a point of view you don't agree with, and there's so much value in that happening in an open setting.

    And - who knows - this might also lead @MorbidNomad to change their perspective. It's important for us to allow people space to express questionable views and grow. Especially when this perspective may potentially be fuelled by very real and valid personal experiences.

    That said, we're also about protecting the safety of this space. And how you all feel and how this might impact someone emotionally is our highest priority. Points of view (however reprehensible we might think they are) are okay, but anything that makes the community feel unsafe or uninclusive is not okay.

    To try and strike the best balance, we've edited the main post (and quotes of it) to remove the parts that felt most problematic and pointed. Our hope is that this preserves the conversation as a whole (and your amazing responses) but avoids the thread making people feel unsafe or unwelcome. This is a safe, inclusive space first and foremost. :)

    If you want to talk this through, drop @The Mix a PM or report the post.
    All behaviour is a need trying to be met.
    chubbydumplingindependent_BenMa
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,170 Skive's The Limit
    You want to address and fix some of the issues related to machismo? 
    Misandrist comments writing off half the population are probably not the way to do it.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
    Liam
  • ThatFelixGuyThatFelixGuy Always Look Up. Optimism > PesimismPosts: 210 Trailblazer
    Bit late to this conversation, but I am upset a lot of you are being incredibly hateful towards men.

    I am a bit different to most guys, I like men, I am not 'physical' and people call me 'soft and gentle', yet I have seen Women all over the internet say men need to day, men need therapy etc.

    It is really disgusting. Feminism is EQUALITY of men, not disguised misandry.
    "Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves." - Bruce Lee
  • LiamLiam mint Posts: 1,645 Extreme Poster
    @ThatFelixGuy

     I am upset a lot of you are being incredibly hateful towards men.
    Who do you mean by “a lot of you” ? Only OP was hateful towards men?
    ThatFelixGuy
  • Anch0r33Anch0r33 Crazy Rat Lady 🐀 Posts: 561 Incredible Poster
    @ThatFelixGuy what do you mean a lot of us? The OP posted something that we all disagree with and it's been dealt with. 

    OP also hasn't been active once since posting so anything on here now is really a lost cause. 

    At the time we all felt very strongly against the original post and as you can see from my comment (and others) we defended men as a group. 

    Check out all the comments again and see the SUPPORT in the thread 
    👁️👄👁️
    GreenTeaThatFelixGuyBenMa
  • ThatFelixGuyThatFelixGuy Always Look Up. Optimism > PesimismPosts: 210 Trailblazer
    I misworded :(
    "Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves." - Bruce Lee
    BenMa
  • ThatFelixGuyThatFelixGuy Always Look Up. Optimism > PesimismPosts: 210 Trailblazer
    That is my bad
    "Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves." - Bruce Lee
    LiamBenMa
  • Anch0r33Anch0r33 Crazy Rat Lady 🐀 Posts: 561 Incredible Poster
    No worries! Just wanted to make sure you didn't think we were all bad!
    👁️👄👁️
    ThatFelixGuyBenMa
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