Gender issue

Former Member

Hello guys,

I really want to know your opinion and to talk about gender issues cause it seems that in Europe there are some really serious society changes connected with transgender people.I’m very tolerant to all the people and I hope my thread won’t hurt anyone. I just wanted to tell that on that beautiful moment when woman gives birth to a child, doctor says «it’s a boy» or «it’s a girl» and not « it’s transgender», cause our gender is something we are gifted biologically by nature and not something that comes up 13 years later. I’m sorry again if it’s unpleasant for someone here, but I guess this issue influences our society strongly and we need to be really attentive to this changes and I just wanted to know your opinion about that.

You also can find an article attached on this topic

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/09/01/why-are-so-many-teenage-girls-appearing-in-gender-clinics

[edited to fix link]

Former Member

Hi @Past User I've moved your post over to the Gender and Sexuality section so hopefully you will get more targeted responses from users here

Unfortunately I wasn't able to open the link you posted, would you be able to post another one?

Former Member

PoppyB said:

Hi @Past User I've moved your post over to the Gender and Sexuality section so hopefully you will get more targeted responses from users here

Unfortunately I wasn't able to open the link you posted, would you be able to post another one?

I've just looked at the link @Past User posted and theirs just one small thing, you just put too many https,if one of the mods just edits the post and add in this link
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/09/01/why-are-so-many-teenage-girls-appearing-in-gender-clinics
Then that should work  

JustV

Firstly, it's okay to express controversial opinions @Past User. As long as you're civil, you're all good.

I can't read the full article as it requires signing up, but the way it's written (and the way you've talked about your own views) makes me think there might be some base-level misunderstandings about what gender actually is, as well as the nature of transitioning and being trans.

For example, you mentioned the moment a baby is born and the doctor saying 'it's a boy' or 'it's a girl'. This is declared purely according to the physical body (well, just the genitals really), meaning it's actually a declaration of sex rather than gender*. Gender is a lot harder to define, and generally is seen by experts (e.g. sociologists) as a social construct instilled in people as they develop, rather than being attributed to anything biological.

As a thought exercise, it might be interesting to consider how differently your personality might have evolved through your life if we lived in a world where gender wasn't recognised. Obviously biological differences would still be there, but (for example) would dresses be seen as a girl thing? Would action figures be seen as a boy thing? Would you act, dress and talk the way you do if you weren't raised with the expectations and ideals that society placed on you?

There's a lot to unravel with this and, admittedly, it's difficult to disentangle aspects of gender from other parts of people and society when you start getting really granular. But I think it's quite important to really consider the difference between gender and sex, and the way society does naturally like to package people up according to fairly arbitrary criteria.

*As an aside, even sex is a difficult to thing to pin down. There is far more variation between the two traditionally identified sexes than people tend to realise - we've just established 'male' and 'female' as convenient boxes, really. I would link to a resource on this but I don't know a super reliable one off the top of my head, and this is a concept I'm still trying to get my head around too.

Would be interesting to know what you think on the above points. I'm coming at this from a cishet perspective so it's naturally a bit of a limited take, and I'm always trying to learn and understand more myself.

Former Member

Hey @Mike,

Thank you so much for your reply, I was really looking forward somebody's answer.

I understand what you're talking about, it's all clear and to tell the truth I didn't really think a lot  about  difference between sex and gender before your reply. The reason why I rose this issue is that , in my opinion, it brings a lot of psychological problems for teenagers and it makes me worried.

I understand that there can be long discussions regarding meaning of gender and how to understand it correctly, but does it make sense if it brings so much problems?  Teenagers are very vulnerable, we all know these relationship problems, first sex, choice of future career, problems with parents, feeling depressed due to relations with peers etc., so they have enough on their side   
Rising this transgender issues so openly it attracts attention of teenagers who were absolutely sure about their gender before but starting to read about all these stuff and being very suggestible (perceptive) to all new ideas they start to doubt regarding their gender and so face psychological problems right after (like that girl from The economist article). That's a pity that you can't read full version of text before signing up, but in fact if you sign up once you have 5 articles for free each month   

@Mike you wrote "Obviously biological differences would still be there, but (for example) would dresses be seen as a girl thing?"  
I understand your question and my answer is no. It's more about prejudices that men can't wear dresses, but wearing dress doesn't make girl out of boy anyway, so we can't define gender by cloths or make-up preferences. As I know men wore skirts in Scotland and none of them started to think that he is female in fact. Although there are no doubts that boy wearing dress nowadays will face bulling at school.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/skirt-ban-secondary-schools-uniform-england-gender-neutral-transgender-pupils-a8426411.html

One more article to read... girls were prohibited to wear skirts cause it can make feel uncomfortable transgender pupils. Why girls (who are girls by sex and gender) can't wear skirts? As for me it's the same if there is very beautiful girl in class and we need to make her uglier cause other pupils in class feel not comfortable with her being so beautiful  It's nonsense. 


There are so much problems in our world and we create even more    I'm sorry for being so emotional but this problem touches me a lot 

JustV

Edit: blimey, I didn't realise how long this post was - sorry for the ramble! Can you tell this is an area of interest for me?

I realise it's been a while since you posted this @Past User - apologies!

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/skirt-ban-secondary-schools-uniform-england-gender-neutral-transgender-pupils-a8426411.html

One more article to read... girls were prohibited to wear skirts cause it can make feel uncomfortable transgender pupils. Why girls (who are girls by sex and gender) can't wear skirts? As for me it's the same if there is very beautiful girl in class and we need to make her uglier cause other pupils in class feel not comfortable with her being so beautiful It's nonsense.

Personally, I think people at school should be free to choose what they wear - I agree that banning skirts outright is heavy-handed and that seems a little dumb to me. But I also wouldn't link this directly to people being more accepting and open about different gender identities - this seems like a bad decision made by people who are trying to be inclusive rather than a sign of any major societal problems.

It's interesting to hear you say that discussing gender and transitioning is leading to problems developing in young people who were previously 'sure of their gender'. Personally, I interpret those cases a little differently and I'd think about a couple of things.

Firstly, I'd ask: how do you know they were sure about their gender?

A lot of trans young people know something about them isn't 'right' before they start to understand exactly what that is - that's something you can hear from almost anyone who identifies as trans. I think a lot of the time people seem sure about their gender even if they are trans, because society doesn't make it easy to say you're questioning your gender or to be honest about these things. A lot of people put on a facade when it comes to things they don't want to admit or talk about - with mental health and other things as well as gender.

Secondly, I'd ask: is it a bad thing to explore your identity?

Personally, when I started opening my mind to the different gender and sexual identities out there, it made me far more introspective and challenge what I thought I knew about myself. Overall, did my identities change? No, not majorly. But it was still a really useful process for me to explore how other people identify and to understand the fluidity of those things. Self-discovery can be a powerful thing and I'm glad my mind is open to those things.

I understand that there can be long discussions regarding meaning of gender and how to understand it correctly, but does it make sense if it brings so much problems?  Teenagers are very vulnerable, we all know these relationship problems, first sex, choice of future career, problems with parents, feeling depressed due to relations with peers etc., so they have enough on their side 

You mention that discussing gender brings 'so many problems' but I'm not sure it does. I certainly don't get that impression and I would imagine most young people would disagree with that idea.

As I mentioned, it might make you more introspective, but it's very unlikely that you'll suddenly become gender dysphoric or suffer as a result of this if you weren't already questioning your gender. If you were struggling with your gender previously, you'll benefit hugely from a more accepting society. If you weren't having those issues with your identity, you might become more accepting of others who are and be able to empathise a little bit more - win win.

You do hear more people identifying as queer today than ever before, which people sometimes misunderstand as the world suddenly having more queer people, or worse still, these discussions 'turning' people queer. But in reality, what you're seeing is those people feeling more able to come out and openly identify in those ways. Trans and gay people have always existed, since long before society started becoming more accepting of them.

The girl in the Economist article seems like a very fringe case and not a representative example of the impact these conversations actually have on society. It's interesting to hear your views though and I'm wondering if it might be a useful experience for you to talk to people who identify as trans to get their perspective on all this. For me, it feels like getting that insight might change your opinions on some of those points (e.g. that discussing gender causes problems in young people).

Former Member

hey @Mike,

Thank you so so much for your replies! I tell you honestly I started to answer you twice but then gave up, cause I kind of feel that I have lack of information, not enough theory and knowledge to talk about such important issues...maybe that'[s the reason why I really want to understand what's going on in minds of those who identify themselves as trans.

The article I brought as example I think was more like example of exaggeration if I can say so. Cause it's true that we are all different and everyone wants to be accepted by society, but it doesn't mean that we need to discriminate big group of people because small group feels bad about it (I'm still referring to the skirt issue). I wonder why they created so much mess around it instead of maybe conducting some voluntary lessons about gender and world diversity What was the practical result of their prohibition? Their action for being tolerant is contradiction to tolerance.

Firstly, I'd ask: how do you know they were sure about their gender?

Good question, but I still guess it's the matter of upbringing and society. It's kind of difficult to explain.  more then 4 generations of men in my family were/are military people, some of them participated in wars (bring this example cause consider military service more like man's activity) and I can imagine how they look at me if I ask them if they have any doubts about their gender. They were brought up like man, man upbringing is different from girl's one, so no doubts that none of them wanted to try to do make up or so...

Secondly, I'd ask: is it a bad thing to explore your identity?

Not bad at all, but ...

I had an experience of participating in psychological trainings, this thing came from America and it was kind of everywhere for sure you know. Unfortunately majority of trainers were hardly psychologists, although this fact didn't stop them to help other to learn their identity and self develop. Have you heard how many people finished in psyco clinics after that and committed suicides? Not everyone is ready to do this journey into themselves, not everyone wants, but considering amount of information, provocations and social nets a lot of people are pushed into it. Again girl from article...she was happy being girl and didn't have doubt or even thoughts about gender, but occasionally ran into group about trans people in social net and started to doubt....the end of the story by the way that she came back to her woman identity, but this experience was very traumatic for her. It’s good to be tolerant and accepting but we need to be careful and not to create mess for everybody.


And at the end one more thing about hormones. We all know this fashion now for vegetarian diets. One my friend decided to try and to have a look how his body feels if he becomes vegetarian.  He passed tests before changing diet. In six months he started to eat meat again, when I asked him why, he told me that he felt less like man in the matter of man's power, I think you know what I mean. He told he became less strong and less enduring. He passed tests when he decided to give up the diet and you know what? testesteron level decreased significantly within this 6 months. What do you think about it?

I really thank you for discussion!

Siena

Oh shit didnt see this thread before i made my thread. Will read this now

Siena

I think there are too many genders and labels. Dunno if anyones been following peirs morgans on the debate for whether he should be saked for his views. But i see his point. There are too many labels. Why need that many? Just be who you are without thinking about all those 100 labels. & removing the femine label from sanitary products is a bit much. I suppose doesnt matter either way but i dont see why anyone would be offended over it being there in the first place

Former Member

@Shaunie
true, but I guess it's people's nature. The same like animals... when there's a weak/sick animal, pride gets rid of it one way or another. It's the law of the nature and existance of anyone in here. The strongest survive ..
So those who are trans for sure belong to weak group anyway due to some reasons 

Siena

Valerialetto said:

@Shaunie
true, but I guess it's people's nature. The same like animals... when there's a weak/sick animal, pride gets rid of it one way or another. It's the law of the nature and existance of anyone in here. The strongest survive ..
So those who are trans for sure belong to weak group anyway due to some reasons 

Not sure what you mean? Why are trans weak? 

Former Member

Being trans doesn't make you weak at all 

Siena

Valerialetto said:

hey @Mike,

Thank you so so much for your replies! I tell you honestly I started to answer you twice but then gave up, cause I kind of feel that I have lack of information, not enough theory and knowledge to talk about such important issues...maybe that'[s the reason why I really want to understand what's going on in minds of those who identify themselves as trans.

The article I brought as example I think was more like example of exaggeration if I can say so. Cause it's true that we are all different and everyone wants to be accepted by society, but it doesn't mean that we need to discriminate big group of people because small group feels bad about it (I'm still referring to the skirt issue). I wonder why they created so much mess around it instead of maybe conducting some voluntary lessons about gender and world diversity What was the practical result of their prohibition? Their action for being tolerant is contradiction to tolerance.

Firstly, I'd ask: how do you know they were sure about their gender?

Good question, but I still guess it's the matter of upbringing and society. It's kind of difficult to explain.  more then 4 generations of men in my family were/are military people, some of them participated in wars (bring this example cause consider military service more like man's activity) and I can imagine how they look at me if I ask them if they have any doubts about their gender. They were brought up like man, man upbringing is different from girl's one, so no doubts that none of them wanted to try to do make up or so...

Secondly, I'd ask: is it a bad thing to explore your identity?

Not bad at all, but ...

I had an experience of participating in psychological trainings, this thing came from America and it was kind of everywhere for sure you know. Unfortunately majority of trainers were hardly psychologists, although this fact didn't stop them to help other to learn their identity and self develop. Have you heard how many people finished in psyco clinics after that and committed suicides? Not everyone is ready to do this journey into themselves, not everyone wants, but considering amount of information, provocations and social nets a lot of people are pushed into it. Again girl from article...she was happy being girl and didn't have doubt or even thoughts about gender, but occasionally ran into group about trans people in social net and started to doubt....the end of the story by the way that she came back to her woman identity, but this experience was very traumatic for her. It’s good to be tolerant and accepting but we need to be careful and not to create mess for everybody.


And at the end one more thing about hormones. We all know this fashion now for vegetarian diets. One my friend decided to try and to have a look how his body feels if he becomes vegetarian.  He passed tests before changing diet. In six months he started to eat meat again, when I asked him why, he told me that he felt less like man in the matter of man's power, I think you know what I mean. He told he became less strong and less enduring. He passed tests when he decided to give up the diet and you know what? testesteron level decreased significantly within this 6 months. What do you think about it?

I really thank you for discussion!

I think i see what you mean here. If i read right. So you think putting so much trans info out there makes more people question themselve who wouldnt normaly and doesnt want to change gender? I can see that. 
i think there are some dangers when things go more public. Like you just question like how do these people know theyre the wrong gender.... how would i know and then you jusy question everything.

but i think similar with MH anyway. I think when more with speaking aboit mental health more people question whether theyre mentally ill when could not be but feel sad or anxious for a bit time and feel like omg maybe im mentally ill and feed into that and it feels bigger next time youre sad. Compared to when not knowing so much about these things. Not that im comparing trans and mental health as completly different things but comparing about when more public & makes people think about it more. 

Former Member

@GreenTea, @Shaunie

probably my phrase could be understood wrong, I'm sorry
but historically (if we speak about nations/people) and biologically (if we speak about spices) groups which are small are impacted strongly by the biggest part of community. We could talk a lot about tolerance and so on, but discrimination is still very strong even if we speak about racial issues (I mean skin color) what to tell then about gender issues?
I do not mean that they are weak people, I mean that they are thousand times much more vulnerable that the majority of people
Do you agree?

Siena

Valerialetto said:

@GreenTea, @Shaunie

probably my phrase could be understood wrong, I'm sorry
but historically (if we speak about nations/people) and biologically (if we speak about spices) groups which are small are impacted strongly by the biggest part of community. We could talk a lot about tolerance and so on, but discrimination is still very strong even if we speak about racial issues (I mean skin color) what to tell then about gender issues?
I do not mean that they are weak people, I mean that they are thousand times much more vulnerable that the majority of people
Do you agree?

Yeah i see what you mean

Former Member

@Shaunie
Yes, you understood me correctly. I'm confused and can't come up with idea what would be better for society...cause on  hand it's good to have a lot of information in open access, but on the other hand it creat a lot of troubles
the same like we have all these personal date stealing issues now...

JustV

Be careful here @Past User. It's one thing to say a societal group is vulnerable, but it's another to say trans people are weak, sick or to use that sort of language around herds and survival - sentiments like that can be damaging. I appreciate you clarified your point, but do be wary of the language you use and the sort of associations you're making here.

We're all human, first and foremost.